shocker coaches - took a look into the past

[abdullah_sharif]

our shox have had ten coaches since the hiring of ralph miller.. i've taken a few minutes to tabulate some stats - some pretty interesting..


the following had the strongest teams with 0.00 being an average division one team:

1) gregg marshall...12.75
2) gene smithson...8.14
3) eddie fogler....7.79
4) ralph miller...7.75
5) mark turgeon...6.29
6) gary thompson...4.65
7) harry miller...3.31
8) randy smithson...2.12
9) mike cohen...-1.13
10) scott thompson...-3.16

not too surprising, only cohen and thompson had below average teams when compared to other ncaa programs over the same coaching time period




the following had the strongest strength of schedule (in order) with 0.00 being an average ncaa team:

1) gary thompson...4.89
2) ralph miller...3.79
3) gregg marshall...3.65
4) mike cohen...3.40
5) mark turgeon...3.11
6) gene smithson...2.95
7) eddie fogler...2.55
8) scott thompson...2.51
9) harry miller...2.39
10) randy smithson...2.21


taking a look further and merging win percentage and strength of schedule, these are our strongest coaches:

1) gregg marshall...2.674
2) gary thompson...2.432
3) ralph miller...2.366
4) gene smithson...1.934
5) mark turgeon...1.827
6) eddie fogler...1.674
7) harry miller...1.242
8) mike cohen...1.239
9) randy smithson...1.04
10) scott thompson...0.911



there's been a lot of criticism of gregg this year.. so i took a look at the team's techincal stats, strength of schedule, and win percentage and his teams rank as follows:


1) 2012-13..........68.77
2) 2017-18..........68.58
3) 2015-16..........54.77
4) 2011-12..........54.16
5) 2016-17..........54.14
6) 2019-20..........52.33
7) 2014-15..........49.08
8) 2013-14..........28.17
9) 2018-19..........27.13
10) 2010-11..........17.64
11) 2009-10..........9.96
12) 2008-09..........2.13
13) 2007-08..........1.05


some observations.... the final four team was the strongest, followed closely by the under performing team featuring landry. was not surprised to see the frist four teams at the bottom, but a little surprised that this year exceeds the strength of the 35-1 season... oh how weak the valley schedule was.

[ShockTalk]

Ummmm…….I think a lot of that Gary Thompson shine comes from Miller's "legacy". No way, no how is Gary Thompson our second strongest coach.

[The Mad Hatter]

Nothing in the original post gives the reader the slightest reference as to what is being measured or how it is being calculated. Just throwing out a number with decimal points behind a coach's name gives me no meaningful information or ability to weigh their value.

[TheShocktocles]

Thank you Mr. Sharif for those statistics. You are right, they are very interesting. But the most important stat in my opinion is their W-L record when those guys coached here. And how did they relate to the Wichita community, WSU, and whether they had negative issues with the NCAA. ( I realize that there have been some times in the past where WSU was treated unfairly by the NCAA) We clearly do not get the special treatment that the so-called blue blood programs get.

[Shockm]

It is mentioned often how well our coach is being paid. True, but if we look at it from another point of view, GM could have gotten probably 1 Million more p/y had he gone to Arkansas or Alabama (4.5 Million at least). Those schools are swimming in money for a coach they truly want and who negotiates back. He has been as loyal to us and Wichita. I think he likes it here but he didn’t need us or need to stay to gain security which is the goal of everyone and every coach.

[abdullah_sharif]

Nothing in the original post gives the reader the slightest reference as to what is being measured or how it is being calculated. Just throwing out a number with decimal points behind a coach's name gives me no meaningful information or ability to weigh their value.

The Mad Hatter ...apologies the data came from the wichita state history page at sports-reference.com. to generate the stats i used their simple rating ststem, the strength of schedule and the weighted win percentage by season for the respective coach.

i was surprised at coach thompson catching the second spot, but as someone else had pointed out, he inherited ralph’s guys and played in what at the time was a top 3 conference. don’t shoot the messenger...

[The Mad Hatter]

The Mad Hatter ...apologies the data came from the wichita state history page at sports-reference.com. to generate the stats i used their simple rating ststem, the strength of schedule and the weighted win percentage by season for the respective coach.

i was surprised at coach thompson catching the second spot, but as someone else had pointed out, he inherited ralph’s guys and played in what at the time was a top 3 conference. don’t shoot the messenger...

Thanks for clarifying. I do still have a major question:

Why did you need to use anything other than the simple ranking system (if what you cared about is strength of schedule) given that SOS is already factored into that ranking? Here is the sports reference's own description of simple ranking system:

A rating that takes into account average point differential and strength of schedule. The rating is denominated in points above/below average, where zero is average. Non-Division I games are excluded from the ratings.

[The Mad Hatter]

I would also suggest that a ranking system that evaluates this year's team as better than the undefeated team should raise more questions about the ranking system's approach to weighing various factors than to anything else.

Kenpom is a much more sophisticated ranking system and it put the undefeated team at #6 (Adjusted EM of +25.36) in the nation by the end of the NCAA tournament compared to this year's current rank of #41 (Adjusted EM of 14.67).

In other words, if the sports reference ranking system is that bad at comparing the strength of the 2014 squad compared to the 2020 squad, it raises serious questions about whether this approach to rankings has much validity to it at all.

I know that it is hard to find ranking systems like Kenpom that have historic data as well, but I have serious doubts that sports references algorithm is particularly reliable.

[ShockingButTrue]

Ummmm…….I think a lot of that Gary Thompson shine comes from Miller's "legacy". No way, no how is Gary Thompson our second strongest coach.

As does fogler's from Smithson.

[MelvinLoudermilk]

No surprise that the data shows Mike Cohen was a horrible coach. That said, I remember him being even worse than this data suggests

[ShockTalk]

As does fogler's from Smithson.

IMHO, Fast Eddie did less with Gene's players than Gene would have done. He definitely hindered Sasha's performance and growth.

Then he left us with a fair well kiss of recommending Cohen.

[ABC]

What’s the explanation for Gene’s last season?

[shocktown]

No surprise that the data shows Mike Cohen was a horrible coach. That said, I remember him being even worse than this data suggests

But he sure was a fine,soft hearted humanitarian. I still remember listening on the radio to the new coach announcement and the guy started to literally blather and cry and my first thought was oh sh!t!

[ShockerPrez]

Cohen was a tough SOB. I remember him coaching on crutches....

Jesus, my brain tries it's best to supress those memories of the 90's Shocker Bball, but they die hard.

[DwShock]

Is this the right thread to talk about Grant Sherfield?