Wichita State out rebounded opponents every game this year. Even in the 2 losses.

[wufan]

While EO doesn't fill the stat sheet with rebounds, he generally takes two dudes totally out of position. Carl does the same thing, but also collects the ball if it is near by. Murry and Kyles do a fantastic job of weak side defensive rebounding.

[1972Shocker]

I did a quick look at our Turnover's and surprising, only one game on the year did we have more turnovers than the other team. I guess from my view I would have guessed us to have lost the turnover battle with teams this year. But then again there is always the other side to the story, that we're such a good defensive team, that we just have a great ability to get steals, so it could just be one of those stats that is kind of skewed a bit, and we are not that good on ball handling efficiency. But then again, that would be something to look at. Which teams had the better assist/turnover ratio.

Not sure if assists/turnovers is the best measure of ball-handling efficiency. Not saying it is a worthless ration but you are comparing unrelated aspects of the game. I'm thinking that turnovers (adjusted to exclude offensive fouls) per possession might be a better measure of ball-handling efficiency. Obviously 6 turnovers in a low possession game is not nearly as efficient as 6 turnovers in a high possession game (i.e. UNLV).

[ripemupshocks]

The most surprising for me was Tulsa. Looking at all the size on their roster before the game was a little scary. I know size isn't always a good indication of rebounding ability, but still, they got a lot of big bigs.

[Kung Wu]

Hannah started two years at the point and did not drive the lane. Ragland has started 1.5 years at the point and did not drive the lane much last year. Murry is a three year starter that did not drive the paint much until this year. Hatch, as a two year starter didn't drive the lane much. Kyles stays away from contact. Hawkins was the starter before Hatch and he also didn't get to the line much. HCGMs first year had Cous at the 3 and he DID drive the paint. shockers shot more FTs than their opponents.

Basically what I'm saying is that up until the last 3 games we have not had consistent dribble-drive penetration from our guards since this years seniors arrived as freshman. I think it has more to do with their personallity than HCGMs coaching philosophy. I think our FT attempts will go up the more TM drives the lane and the more the Beast gets the ball in the paint. Both of them can create contact and finish.

Not just Cous ... but Jamar Howard and Burns both went inside a lot. Personalities is a good thought.

[_kai_]

Not sure if assists/turnovers is the best measure of ball-handling efficiency. Not saying it is a worthless ration but you are comparing unrelated aspects of the game. I'm thinking that turnovers (adjusted to exclude offensive fouls) per possession might be a better measure of ball-handling efficiency. Obviously 6 turnovers in a low possession game is not nearly as efficient as 6 turnovers in a high possession game (i.e. UNLV).

Excellent points. Very good ideas on evaluating the ball-handling efficiency.

[shockmonster]

Wichita State out rebounded opponents every game this year. Even in the 2 losses.

CSU	+14
CU	+11
BAMA	+4
Temple	+1
UAB	+11
CS-Full	+9
UNLV	+3
Tulsa	+6
Total	+59

Out rebounding our opponents by 59 on the year is insane.

I'm not sure why that is so insane? That 59 means they are outrebounding their opponents +6.4 rebounds per game. Last year WSU outrebounded their opponents by +8.4 rebounds per game.

I don't want to nit pick but if my math is correct, the rebounding differential this year is actually +7.4 rounded up. 59 total rebounds divided by 8 is 7.37

[The Mad Hatter]

Not sure if assists/turnovers is the best measure of ball-handling efficiency. Not saying it is a worthless ration but you are comparing unrelated aspects of the game. I'm thinking that turnovers (adjusted to exclude offensive fouls) per possession might be a better measure of ball-handling efficiency. Obviously 6 turnovers in a low possession game is not nearly as efficient as 6 turnovers in a high possession game (i.e. UNLV).

The reason assist to turnover ratio is used, however, is to prevent a team that just dribbles down the court and settles for a bad three point shot from being considered a good ball-handling team. You can prevent turnovers by not trying to give entry passes to the post or penetrate the defense (where turnover risk increases), but failure to create good shots can effectively be like a turnover, because it creates empty possessions. At least assist to turnover ratio takes into account that some play that increases risk of turnover also increases the likelihood of the possession ending in a made basket.

[1972Shocker]

If a team is settling for bad three point shots they are probably not racking up many assists.

I would think assist/turnover ratio is probably more relevant for a point guard or guards in general than it is for post players.

My guess is that when a coaching staff grades out a film there are some "assists" that are discounted because the passer does nothing to really create the scoring opportunity. For example, the guard come across half court makes routine pass to Andrew Goudelock who catches and shoots a 30 footer.

OTOH, there are times when a players creates a great scoring opportunity by drawing the defense to him and then drops a perfect pass to a teammate who blows a wide open bunny. No assist.

Similarly, turnovers involve many different degrees of judgement, difficulty and sometimes just plain carelessness or lack of basketball IQ. Sometimes the opponent simply makes a great play.

Bottom line is that not all assists are equal nor are all turnovers equal. Raw statistics really do not do a good job of capturing these subtleties.

When watching a game most knowledgable fans know a good assist when they see one and a bad turnover when they see one as does the coaching staff when breaking down game films and grading out players which I'm guessing the coaches rely on more than raw stats.

Would be an interesting question to pose to Coach Marshall on his radio show sometime.

[The Mad Hatter]

The team settling for bad three pointers not getting many assists was precisely my point on the value of assist to turnover ratio instead of turnovers per possession. Such a team could have very few turnovers per possession, but are essentially creating turnovers by taking empty shots.

Clearly none of these measures are objective evaluations of good or bad play. While there may be some (like those who do sabermetrics may have complex systems) systems that are more sophisticated, there is a reason, as you noted, that breaking down game film matters to coaches well beyond what the box score tells them.

[wufan]

Would be an interesting question to pose to Coach Marshall on his radio show sometime.

I'd rather ask if HCGM would comment on the players that have verballed, and find out how come Ron Baker isn't getting more playing time. Also, would he just let us know why he doesnt schedule KU? I'll hang up and listen.

[1979Shocker]

I'd rather ask if HCGM would comment on the players that have verballed, and find out how come Ron Baker isn't getting more playing time. Also, would he just let us know why he doesnt schedule KU? I'll hang up and listen.

HCGM can't comment on players that have verballed, only those that have signed LOI's. As for Ron Baker, Marshall has already commented on him in previous shows and said he'd rather play him as a 5th year senior rather than play him now and not get as much playing time out of him.

[WSUwatcher]

Its all Garretts fault.

"George W. Bush is alive and living in Wichita, and his new identity is Garrett Stutz -- but it's still his fault."

(Courtesy of Barack Obama's teleprompter)

[WSUwatcher]

I'm not sure why that is so insane? That 59 means they are outrebounding their opponents +6.4 rebounds per game. Last year WSU outrebounded their opponents by +8.4 rebounds per game.

Actually, SB, 59/8 = 7.4 per game, not 6.4. Considering the guys the Shocks lost, and some of the teams they've played, that's a pleasant surprise to me too.

[SB Shock]

Yeah I blame it from typing it out on the iPhone. Regardless, this year rebounding margin at this point although good to this point are not all that special and is not as good (at least yet) as last year.

[wufan]

HCGM can't comment on players that have verballed, only those that have signed LOI's. As for Ron Baker, Marshall has already commented on him in previous shows and said he'd rather play him as a 5th year senior rather than play him now and not get as much playing time out of him.

That was sarcasm towards the regular calls they receive...I'm aware of all of the answers to those questions. :)