Wichita State All Time Records

[WuDrWu]

Not to (necessarily) rehash this whole debate, but barring injury, Toure' Murry is going to graduate next spring playing in more games than any other Shocker, being a top 20 scorer, top 10 in 3FGM, top 5 in assists (could be #1) and probably #2 in steals and he's going to be somewhere on the career rebounding chart (470 now).

His teams will have 4 post season appearances, never a losing record, possibly more wins than any other Shocker in his career (don't know what that record is, but with 72 and counting, he's got to be near the top already), with 6 (and counting) post season wins that has to be near a record and he's done all of it with 110% class and grace, representing the University at every single turn in a positive manner. I cannot remember a single incident where Toure' lost his cool for even a moment.

He is going to be one of the greatest all around players in Shocker history, and he should be recognized and remembered for that.

[_kai_]

Not to (necessarily) rehash this whole debate, but barring injury, Toure' Murry is going to graduate next spring playing in more games than any other Shocker, being a top 20 scorer, top 10 in 3FGM, top 5 in assists (could be #1) and probably #2 in steals and he's going to be somewhere on the career rebounding chart (470 now).

His teams will have 4 post season appearances, never a losing record, possibly more wins than any other Shocker in his career (don't know what that record is, but with 72 and counting, he's got to be near the top already), with 6 (and counting) post season wins that has to be near a record and he's done all of it with 110% class and grace, representing the University at every single turn in a positive manner. I cannot remember a single incident where Toure' lost his cool for even a moment.

He is going to be one of the greatest all around players in Shocker history, and he should be recognized and remembered for that.

He's a 100% class act. He represents Wichita State so well.

[ShockerFever]

1. Murry looks like he will finish #1 in assists and #2 in steals, and also be in the top 10 in points and threes. All this from someone who takes a lot of heat on this board for not being the player we think he should be. Seems a little harsh given where he'll end up.

I know, no doubt, that TM is a great human being, a real likable guy I'm sure.

That aside, does anybody know where he ranks among the Most Turnovers in Shocker history? He has led the team in that category in each year, 94, 74, and 99 respectively. And last year, the person who came in 2nd had less than half that. He's done a lot of good for the team, but also he has some glaring marks. I think it's only fair that you look at both when evaluating an individual and I think a lot of people simply don't do that. It's a great if you're doing good in one area, but if you're doing equally bad in another area, doesn't that almost cancel something out?

Let's not act like there's a reason some people question some things about players. It's not like I or anybody else does it out of thin air.

Let's hope those numbers improve by a lot in his senior year and hopefully that's a category he doesn't lead all 4 years of his playing time here.

[_kai_]

I know, no doubt, that TM is a great human being, a real likable guy I'm sure.

That aside, does anybody know where he ranks among the Most Turnovers in Shocker history? He has led the team in that category in each year, 94, 74, and 99 respectively. And last year, the person who came in 2nd had less than half that. He's done a lot of good for the team, but also he has some glaring marks. I think it's only fair that you look at both when evaluating an individual and I think a lot of people simply don't do that. It's a great if you're doing good in one area, but if you're doing equally bad in another area, doesn't that almost cancel something out?

Let's not act like there's a reason some people question some things about players. It's not like I or anybody else does it out of thin air.

Let's hope those numbers improve by a lot in his senior year and hopefully that's a category he doesn't lead all 4 years of his playing time here.

And you also have to look at the fact that Coach has played him at the point when he shouldn't have had to bring the ball up, because he was the best option we had at the time. It's really unfair to talk about turnovers with Toure as a stat that he should be looked down upon. Does he make bad decisions? Of course. But I bet his turnovers are much lower if he didn't have to play the 1.

[ShockerFever]

And you also have to look at the fact that Coach has played him at the point when he shouldn't have had to bring the ball up, because he was the best option we had at the time. It's really unfair to talk about turnovers with Toure as a stat that he should be looked down upon. Does he make bad decisions? Of course. But I bet his turnovers are much lower if he didn't have to play the 1.

But he did. So either that's a coaching blunder or you just have to chalk it up to bad basketball.

TM does try to force things at times, out of the flow of the offense. That's another stat that could be brought up. FG% or 3 pt FG%. Let me guess, is that the fault of bad positioning too?

[_kai_]

But he did. So either that's a coaching blunder or you just have to chalk it up to bad basketball.

TM does try to force things at times, out of the flow of the offense. That's another stat that could be brought up. FG% or 3 pt FG%. Let me guess, is that the fault of bad positioning too?

It's neither a coaching blunder or Toure's problem, it's a problem with playing the hand you're dealt. If Rags had a grasp of the offense at the beginning of the season, that he did at the end, Toure would have way less turnovers.

[ShockerFever]

It's neither a coaching blunder or Toure's problem, it's a problem with playing the hand you're dealt. If Rags had a grasp of the offense at the beginning of the season, that he did at the end, Toure would have way less turnovers.

So it's Joe Ragland's fault for Toure Murry turning over the basketball?

Gotcha.

Just look at the facts I laid out and nothing more. He has led the team in ALL 3 seasons in the TO department. Unless TM has played the 1 for about 100 games, your logic is being hindered.

I realize I'm not gonna sway the opinion of those who think TM can do no wrong, but at least consider some of the bad statistics laid out as well. They don't lie.

[WuDrWu]

It's neither a coaching blunder or Toure's problem, it's a problem with playing the hand you're dealt. If Rags had a grasp of the offense at the beginning of the season, that he did at the end, Toure would have way less turnovers.

Less turnovers and assists, and in all likelihood, more points and rebounds. And I get what 'Fever is saying and his points are valid and I am not going to sit here and say Toure' is the best pure shooter or the best ball handler etc....like most players, he certainly has aspects of his game that need improving and I don't think for a minute that Toure' doesn't know that. My point was simply that he's going to be one of the 10-20 all around best players in the history of the program when you are willing to look at all of his body of work, the good and the bad, because there is a heck of a lot more good than bad.

[ShockerFever]

Thank you for at least considering alternative points of view Doc. I'm not out to get TM. I'm just giving an honest assessment of the situation from my view and then providing a few statistical tidbits. It was not my intention to turn this thread into a TM debating game. The only reason I came in is because I felt like I was being called out by a certain poster and felt the need to defend myself and stance.

[_kai_]

So it's Joe Ragland's fault for Toure Murry turning over the basketball?

Gotcha.

You would be awesome at making documentaries like Michael Moore.

[ShockerFever]

You would be awesome at making documentaries like Michael Moore.

Nice rebuttal yourself.

[The Mad Hatter]

The most obvious comparison for Toure' is PJ who was the other wing player of recent memory rightly lauded as one of the best all around players to come through the program. As noted above, Toure' will finish his career ahead of PJ in a lot of categories, but what about the turnover issue?

So far the only two seasons we can fairly compare between the two players are their Sophomore and Junior years, since PJ didn't play nearly as much as Toure' as a freshman and Toure' had yet to play his Senior year.

As a Sophomore and Junior, PJ, like Toure', led the team in turnovers both seasons. In addition, Toure's turnover to assist ratio is over those two years is slightly better than PJ's at 1.35:1 vs. 1.33:1.

Could both players have been better in this regard? Sure they could have. However, do we really apply this criticism fairly? Do we ask the players who had lower turnover numbers than them to get as many steals, rebounds, blocked shots, etc. as these two did? Do we count on other players to be matched on the opposing team's best player like these two did?

It is fine to point out how these players could be better shooters or protect the ball better, but only after recognizing that what they bring to the table is something very, very special and hard to replace.

[Shoxfan11]

Not to (necessarily) rehash this whole debate, but barring injury, Toure' Murry is going to graduate next spring playing in more games than any other Shocker, being a top 20 scorer, top 10 in 3FGM, top 5 in assists (could be #1) and probably #2 in steals and he's going to be somewhere on the career rebounding chart (470 now).

His teams will have 4 post season appearances, never a losing record, possibly more wins than any other Shocker in his career (don't know what that record is, but with 72 and counting, he's got to be near the top already), with 6 (and counting) post season wins that has to be near a record and he's done all of it with 110% class and grace, representing the University at every single turn in a positive manner. I cannot remember a single incident where Toure' lost his cool for even a moment.

He is going to be one of the greatest all around players in Shocker history, and he should be recognized and remembered for that.

While we're on the subject.. I'll always remember a block Toure' made against Pitt in 2009. It was one of the most athletic moves I've seen from a WSU player in a long time and was a perfectly clean block where he utilized his length perfectly. However, the ref called a foul on it in anticipation that a Wichita State player couldn't cleanly make a block like that.. Instead of arguing with the ref about it like a player on an actual BCS team would, Toure' kept his cool 100% and, if I remember correctly, didn't say a single word and just kept on playing the game. That is class.

[JaminShock]

Thank you for at least considering alternative points of view Doc. I'm not out to get TM. I'm just giving an honest assessment of the situation from my view and then providing a few statistical tidbits. It was not my intention to turn this thread into a TM debating game. The only reason I came in is because I felt like I was being called out by a certain poster and felt the need to defend myself and stance.

As that certain poster, I can say that was NOT my intent. I was merely pointing out, as Doc has, that we should recognize where he stands all-time.

[Aargh]

Players who are asked to do more tend to have more opportunities to make mistakes. Comparing turnovers in basketball is like comparing errors in baseball as a raw number instead of putting that into a fielding percentage.

Toure has probably had more touches than many other players, but no one counts touches in basketball. If TM has 100 turnovers on 1,000 passing attempts and another player has 80 turnovers on 600 passing attempts, does that mean Toure is worse at handling the ball?