Perspective

[WSUwatcher]

We get the occasional gloat about Creighton's struggles in the Enormous East this year, and I agree that it's amusing to see -- but for those finding this a frustrating season for WSU thanks to the perfect storm of graduation, transfer, injury, and injustice (free Teddy!) the Shocks have suffered, imagine how this season must feel for Xavier fans. The X's are just 4-8 in conference, bad enough to be tied with the Jayboys, and 12-13 overall.

That's remarkable for a program that has been so successful in recent years -- did anyone in southwestern Ohio see something like this coming? The Shocks are not alone out there as they go tramping through the wilderness.

[pie n eye]

Their long time coach is at Louisville now right?

[Dan]

Misery loves company

[pogo]

Is that Misery or Misery State ?

[SB Shock]

That's remarkable for a program that has been so successful in recent years -- did anyone in southwestern Ohio see something like this coming? .

It not that remarkable.

1. Team loses head coach (Chris Mack)
2. Bad recruiting class (bunch of 2 star recruit with one 4star that has not made any impact).

[WSUwatcher]

See quote below

[ShockerFever]

Wow, somebody missed the boat with that comparison.

[Kel Varnsen]

I believe Xavier also has a top 20 recruiting class coming in.

[Aargh]

I don't have much confidence in first-year players. Not even in the MVC, In the AAC having a lot of first-year players is not going to produce favorable results.

At the beginning of the season, I was thinking in terms of 6 conference wins, and I wasn't going to let that shake my support of the team or Marshall. I had some considerations about Marshall not having a PG or a big man on the roster, concerns about the class imbalance issue, and repeating the lack of balance among classes.

Shamet is not and was not a PG. He was borderline AA playing the position, but he's shown himself to be an assassin at SG in the NBA. Reaves was next in line to play PG. Like Landry, he is a SG who was going to be playing out of position because he was capable of playing out of position. There are all sorts of theories running around about why Reaves transferred. I just think he didn't want to be a PG in college. He's a natural SG.

So this year we had to rely on a first-year player to play PG. That should be considered to be the equivalent of not having a PG on the roster. Burton is another combo who "can play" PG. I haven't seen enough of his game to know whether he would have a better career at another position, but he's the best we've got right now. Torres looked like a great late signee and is actually a PG, but he's struggled to adjust his game to D1. That happens with first-year players.

A guy like Baker doesn't come up once in a lifetime. Unrecruited guy out of a 3A HS who ends up on NBA rosters for 3 years. I may be wrong, but you're not going to see that twice in your lifetime. FVV is maybe a once in a decade recruit. He was undervalued by recruiting services by 90 to 100 positions and he was borderline top-100. Finding the undervalued guy and actually signing him is not automatic and isn't going to happen very often. Finding a future NBA player in the D3 JuCo ranks (Early) is another thing that almost never happens.

[Dan]

We gotta keep this perspective regarding the incoming recruits as well. They look good in the highlight reels, but they haven’t experienced a D1 game. It will be very helpful to have a roster full of guys that know how difficult it is to win a D1 game. Hopefully they can convey this to our newcomers in the form of off season work ethic and competition over the summer. I’m feeling a lot better about Burton/Torres having primary PG duties heading into the season, but I really wanna see Etienne on the FVV path and start making an impact at some point during year 1.

[asiseeit]

I don't see JB as a SG as shooting guards need to be excellent shooters to score and stretch
defenses - he is, however, evolving into a decent PG. On the season, I believe it is progressing
a little better than I expected and key players are progressing well and gaining experience. The
coaching staff and some young players deserve much credit, as well as MM. Don't think there is
a team in the AAC that wants to face us in post season. I don't think we have lost our edge, in fact,
most recently we are playing with a lot of energy and gaining an edge because of just that. Right
now we have a good chance of finishing at least 7th better than expected and have several really
young talented players that are getting valuable experience going forward. Lots of exciting games
played so far and to come. Go Shocks !

[Dan]

I can see Burton shifting over and playing more 3 in the future. He’s got enough size and athletism for small forward and can mix it inside with the bigger guys.

[IndianaShocker]

He needs to finish a little better to become an effective 3. Would like to see 5 minutes or so per game of him on the court a long side Ricky. Two road blocks.....1. Neither shoot it well enough to play together 2. Either Dennis or Erik would need to be the 2 guard and I don't see HCGM reducing SHJ's minutes.

[Dan]

Yea, it can’t happen until we have a competent PG (Etienne?). I’m thinking by this time next year, we could see him playing the 3, not the 2. At least at the 3 spot, he can emphasize his interior play and strength a little more. I don’t see him being a 2 guard, at least not until he significantly improves his 3 point shooting.

[WeWillShockU]

Does anyone know if the shocks are going on a summer foreign tour this year? Seems like it would be a good idea to me. Can someone put the question to Mike Kennedy to ask the coach?

[1972Shocker]

Does anyone know if the shocks are going on a summer foreign tour this year? Seems like it would be a good idea to me. Can someone put the question to Mike Kennedy to ask the coach?

My understanding is the you can only do these once very 4 years. Shocks went to Canada in the summer of 2016. Their earliest opportunity to do another one would be in the summer of 2020.

Previously the Shockers played in Brazil in 2011 and in Vancouver in 2006.

[WSUwatcher]

It not that remarkable.

1. Team loses head coach (Chris Mack)
2. Bad recruiting class (bunch of 2 star recruit with one 4star that has not made any impact).

Actually, SB, you're wrong -- it IS remarkable.

Sometimes losing your coach is a killer (e.g., from Eddie Fogler to Mike Cohen and a decade of oblivion), other times not. Historically, Xavier falls into the Not camp. Chris Mack actually had the "worst" winning percentage (at .689!) of any Xavier coach in more than 30 years, since Pete Gillen took over back in the mid '80s when Gene Smithson was just burning out at WSU. So losing Mack wasn't an obvious reason for concern at Xavier, because Mike Cohen wasn't available to succeed him, and the guy who took over instead had a good pedigree in keeping with his five predecessors.

Also, their recruiting class (for whatever its rating is worth) has been largely irrelevant; their top five scorers (ranging in 3G-like style from 9.8 to 13.8 ppg) are two sophomores, two juniors, and a grad transfer, and their sixth man (and #6 scorer at 7.2 ppg) is another grad transfer. So they don't resemble WSU in terms of lacking experience, and yet they're having a disaster season by their standards anyway.

My point remains -- sometimes stuff just happens, and it can happen to teams facing far fewer hurdles than WSU has had to try to clear this season, even teams with a far longer history of consistent success than WSU has had.

[FadedCrown]

I don't have much confidence in first-year players. Not even in the MVC, In the AAC having a lot of first-year players is not going to produce favorable results.

At the beginning of the season, I was thinking in terms of 6 conference wins, and I wasn't going to let that shake my support of the team or Marshall. I had some considerations about Marshall not having a PG or a big man on the roster, concerns about the class imbalance issue, and repeating the lack of balance among classes.

Shamet is not and was not a PG. He was borderline AA playing the position, but he's shown himself to be an assassin at SG in the NBA. Reaves was next in line to play PG. Like Landry, he is a SG who was going to be playing out of position because he was capable of playing out of position. There are all sorts of theories running around about why Reaves transferred. I just think he didn't want to be a PG in college. He's a natural SG.

So this year we had to rely on a first-year player to play PG. That should be considered to be the equivalent of not having a PG on the roster. Burton is another combo who "can play" PG. I haven't seen enough of his game to know whether he would have a better career at another position, but he's the best we've got right now. Torres looked like a great late signee and is actually a PG, but he's struggled to adjust his game to D1. That happens with first-year players.

A guy like Baker doesn't come up once in a lifetime. Unrecruited guy out of a 3A HS who ends up on NBA rosters for 3 years. I may be wrong, but you're not going to see that twice in your lifetime. FVV is maybe a once in a decade recruit. He was undervalued by recruiting services by 90 to 100 positions and he was borderline top-100. Finding the undervalued guy and actually signing him is not automatic and isn't going to happen very often. Finding a future NBA player in the D3 JuCo ranks (Early) is another thing that almost never happens.

But you and I saw what happened after Shamet moved to PG.

[WSUwatcher]

Faded has a good point about Shamet, Aargh. He may not have been a "true" PG, for what that was worth, and he's clearly an outstanding young SG now that he's returned to that role in the League. But he was better as a PG than anyone else was at WSU, or on most teams around the country. Finding a natural PG who can play the position as well as Shamet did (much less Fred) isn't easy, and if the Shocks come up with a true PG who can direct the offense as well as Shamet did -- whether it's Torres finding his shot and finishing the jump to high level Division I, or someone new next year -- they will have done very well for themselves.

But they can still be a very successful team, and do so in the American, even if they have to rely on somebody who "can play" the position, as long as he does it well enough. They were pretty successful last year with no true PG, and their deficiencies that ultimately led to a disappointing finish weren't on the offensive end.