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  • #16
    We might consider Creighton's path when they jumped to the Big East.

    First year in, with a veteran team and an NBA-bound leader, they were at the top of the league. Then two years of struggle as they retooled with athletes built for the Big East grind.

    I would be happy with an NIT bid next year as a set up for a monster junior-led team in 2021.

    2014 -- 27-8 (14-4, 2nd) NCAA #3
    2015 -- 14-19 (4-14, Tied for 9th. 0-8 conference start, then played better down the stretch and won a game in the BE tourney)
    2016 -- 20-15 (9-9, 6th) NIT
    2017 -- 25-10 (10-8, 3rd) NCAA #6
    2018 -- 21-12 (10-8, Tied for 3rd) NCAA #8
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
    Isaac Asimov

    Comment


    • Shock Top
      Shock Top commented
      Editing a comment
      If WSU starts landing recruits like CU, then great!

      Over the last two classes CU has signed 6 players, 5 of those were 4* kids.
      - 2017 kids ranked: 85, 79, 64;
      - 2018 kids ranked: 114 and an UR 4* for some reason

      Stars aren't everything, but they are a good baseline to start with (on most occasions).

  • #17
    Here's some truths. We lost Shamet and Reaves. We lost 6 seniors. McDuffie is a great role player... Not a great leader. SHJ is just a warm body that is being asked to play a position he just isn't great at. We have a lot of freshmen being asked to play more then they need to be. We have injuries. Teddy Allen situation kept the team is a flux in the beginning of the year. Now a combination of all these things have derailed a reload to a rebuild. Gregg has done a fantastic job...SHJ getting the playing time he gets is the only thing I see wrong, I'm just a blogger on a fan site.

    Comment


    • #18
      Several setbacks, including the "exodus," over the last several months has hurt the team. All things considered the Shocks have been competitive for the most part...

      Still, going forward, I see 3, MAYBE 5, wins the rest of this season. If everyone returns next season, including Allen, I could see 18-20 wins next year being a "possibility."

      Comment


      • #19
        "You Just Want to Slap The #### Outta Some People"

        Comment


        • #20
          Originally posted by ShockingButTrue View Post
          Several setbacks, including the "exodus," over the last several months has hurt the team. All things considered the Shocks have been competitive for the most part...

          Still, going forward, I see 3, MAYBE 5, wins the rest of this season. If everyone returns next season, including Allen, I could see 18-20 wins next year being a "possibility."
          What three games do you think the Shockers will win?

          Comment


          • #21
            Pretty good actually. I see a group that has fight in them. They look like a group of young very young players. We need a leader, who that will be is yet to be seen.
            I have come here to chew bubblegum and kickass ... and I'm all out of bubblegum.

            Comment


            • #22
              No worries, this will be a down season but this crew should improve as the season progresses. This will lay a solid foundation for the next three seasons, one year does not a career make.
              “Losers Average Losers.” ― Paul Tudor Jones

              Comment


              • #23
                The future is as it has always been. Only about 3 directions things can go. Things will remain the same, get worse or get better. In the long run all 3 things will happen. Right now we are in a spell where things have taken a turn for the worse. Predicting what happens next is always tricky and something I, myself, am pretty poor at. I will say that the future at this point is quite a bit cloudier than it has been in the recent past.

                At this point we appear to have 4 or maybe 5 players (Markis, Samajae, Jaime, Dexter and maybe Poor Bear) capable of scoring consistently when healthy. 2 of those guys will be gone next year. We add Teddy who will be able to put some points on the board. But unless some of the other guys and some of he new guys step up more of the same may be in order. But who knows for sure what next year will bring let along beyond that?
                Last edited by 1972Shocker; 1 week ago.

                Comment


                • #24
                  Is there any word on how Torres shoots at pracices? Is it about the same, both reluctant and poor? Does he shoot more willingly, but poor? average? good? Dare I ask, great?

                  Same questions re: Stevenson. Re: Burton. Re: Dennis
                  "I not sure that I've ever been around a more competitive player or young man than Fred VanVleet. I like to win more than 99.9% of the people in this world, but he may top me." -- Gregg Marshall 12/23/13
                  ---------------------------------------
                  Remember when Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare:
                  "We have to pass it, to find out what's in it".

                  A physician called into a radio show and said:
                  "That's the definition of a stool sample."

                  Comment


                • #25
                  Unless (a) improved PG play next year can convince me that this coaching staff has found a number of under-recruited kids, or (b) this coaching staff is that much better in development and game management than the other top teams in the American, I am not optimistic.

                  As a team, our talent level just does not seem to match-up with the other top programs in the American. My eyes, and the data, seem to be in agreement. On a micro level, I don't put a tremendous amount of stock in a player's rating coming out of high school - within a reasonable range. However, I do think that it is enlightening to look at ratings of rosters on a macro level. While there will be highly-rated kids that unfortunately don't perform up to their rating, they are generally showing up on campus with more tools to work with.

                  Our success (mostly in the MVC - important to note) has been largely driven by two 4* PGs who are now in NBA rotations, surrounded by good 3* role players. A quick survey of other top programs in the American shows that our roster does not contain as many highly-recruited kids as four other top American programs. This is in no way determinative of success (or necessarily talent), but I think that it puts increased pressure on the coaching staff.

                  A quick survey of the rosters of a few other American programs, showed the following number of kids who received a 4* or 5* rating from a large recruiting service:

                  UConn - 7 (4*), 1 (5*) - With 3 more (4*) coming in next year.
                  Temple - 7 (4*)
                  Memphis - 5 (4*) - With 2 (5*) and 1 (4*) coming in next year.
                  Houston - 4 (4*)
                  WSU/SMU/Cinn - 2 (4*)

                  While I may not be optimistic, I do think that it is only fair to allow the coaching staff and the kids to develop through next year. However, it seems like this coaching staff has not elevated its recruiting commensurate with the elevation in conference affiliation. This is concerning.

                  Comment


                  • N Crestway
                    N Crestway commented
                    Editing a comment
                    A tough dose of reality. I pretty much see it the same way but don't like to think about it too much...kind of painful to see it put into hard figures like what you posted. The turnover in assistants over the last couple of years is also a variable, maybe hard to gauge, but we do know that we lost several very good ones prior to last season..
                    Last edited by N Crestway; 1 week ago.

                  • proshox
                    proshox commented
                    Editing a comment
                    A quick lesson why WSU could struggle to have sustained success in the American. To recruits, WSU has a harder time differentiating itself from many programs in the American.

                    The pitch was WIN, WIN, WIN... then make a run on the biggest National Stage every single year. I know many fans can’t wrap their head around how easy it was to guarantee a At-Large Bid. Yes, this year would be dicey in the MVC but I would submit the roster may not have been the same had we steam rolled the Valley last year.

                    Now the pitch is going to be on the overall schedule, fans, and HCGM. Guess what? At least three American teams have the exact same pitch in much more favorable geographical locations. Success at the level we were is just sooo much harder to achieve going forward. Not impossible or improbable, but really hard in comparison.

                • #26
                  Originally posted by captain View Post
                  Unless (a) improved PG play next year can convince me that this coaching staff has found a number of under-recruited kids, or (b) this coaching staff is that much better in development and game management than the other top teams in the American, I am not optimistic.

                  As a team, our talent level just does not seem to match-up with the other top programs in the American. My eyes, and the data, seem to be in agreement. On a micro level, I don't put a tremendous amount of stock in a player's rating coming out of high school - within a reasonable range. However, I do think that it is enlightening to look at ratings of rosters on a macro level. While there will be highly-rated kids that unfortunately don't perform up to their rating, they are generally showing up on campus with more tools to work with.

                  Our success (mostly in the MVC - important to note) has been largely driven by two 4* PGs who are now in NBA rotations, surrounded by good 3* role players. A quick survey of other top programs in the American shows that our roster does not contain as many highly-recruited kids as four other top American programs. This is in no way determinative of success (or necessarily talent), but I think that it puts increased pressure on the coaching staff.

                  A quick survey of the rosters of a few other American programs, showed the following number of kids who received a 4* or 5* rating from a large recruiting service:

                  UConn - 7 (4*), 1 (5*) - With 3 more (4*) coming in next year.
                  Temple - 7 (4*)
                  Memphis - 5 (4*) - With 2 (5*) and 1 (4*) coming in next year.
                  Houston - 4 (4*)
                  WSU/SMU/Cinn - 2 (4*)

                  While I may not be optimistic, I do think that it is only fair to allow the coaching staff and the kids to develop through next year. However, it seems like this coaching staff has not elevated its recruiting commensurate with the elevation in conference affiliation. This is concerning.
                  Comparing WSU's 1st and 2nd American recruiting classes with those of other conference schools with more than four years in the conference is a bit unfair.
                  "I not sure that I've ever been around a more competitive player or young man than Fred VanVleet. I like to win more than 99.9% of the people in this world, but he may top me." -- Gregg Marshall 12/23/13
                  ---------------------------------------
                  Remember when Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare:
                  "We have to pass it, to find out what's in it".

                  A physician called into a radio show and said:
                  "That's the definition of a stool sample."

                  Comment


                  • captain
                    captain commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Agreed, but those classes also were on the heels of unprecedented success. I am concerned about our ability to recruit as a middle to lower-end American program.

                  • captain
                    captain commented
                    Editing a comment
                    My comparison was more related to future success in the conference, rather than a comparison versus any particular program. The closest comparison to WSU's on-court success in a mid-major conference in recent years has been Gonzaga. However, Gonzaga has been able to build on their success (currently 6 (4*) players) in a way that WSU has not.

                • #27
                  I'm kinda of surprised at the overall attitude so far. People really asking if we are going to get 3 wins in conference? We just took one of the Top 4-5 programs in the conference (and likely NCAA bubble team) to OT after having a large lead most of the game. Sure it wasn't a win, but frankly I don't see it as a reason to think we will struggle to win 3 games.

                  Comment


                  • Shock Top
                    Shock Top commented
                    Editing a comment
                    If you can't hang on to an 11 point lead with 3:00 to go at home, you are going to have a hard time winning any games.

                    This isn't a one-off experience this season either. Baylor and Southern Miss games proved that.

                  • Stickboy46
                    Stickboy46 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    .... if you are able to build 11 (or 33 pt) leads on good teams ... you have a chance to win games too.

                  • WuDrWu
                    WuDrWu commented
                    Editing a comment
                    My biggest concern today is losing the team. I believe this group can win games, this year, and a lot of them if things go well (make a few shots, stay healthy etc) but I get nervous about a bunch of them getting frustrated if things go south. Potentially, it could snowball in a hurry. That's why Sunday hurt more than a little. 1-1 with a win against a talented and solid Temple squad would have really bolstered their spirits, especially considering how young they are. 0-2 just sounds and feels so much worse, and the thought of likely being in last place, for awhile, can't be exciting, for anyone, least of all a team filled with 18-20 year olds.

                • #28
                  This season is rough, but can be a good reminder that winning is hard and should never be taken for granted.
                  "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Better have some sugar and water too, or else your lemonade will suck!

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Shocker1976 View Post

                    What three games do you think the Shockers will win?
                    ECU (twice) and Tulane here (not real sure about this one though).

                    Comment


                    • Shock Top
                      Shock Top commented
                      Editing a comment
                      ECU just beat Cinci. Certainly can't assume that's a win at this current point.

                    • Stickboy46
                      Stickboy46 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That's the negative look. Since every metric says we are better than ECU, you can also conclude we can beat Cincy

                  • #30
                    Depends if Etch can continue to play.

                    Comment

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