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I agree, get LS in there before LS2 !!!
W(A)J is a no-brainer, and we need some High Cheese too!
W(A)J is a no-brainer, and we need some High Cheese too!
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For some the glass is half full and for others half empty. My glass is out of ice.
- said no one ever... -
Ron, Fred, and HCGM are all no-brainers for the rafters because of their longevity in the program, All-American honors, legacy, impact on the program, etc. I have seen arguments against one or two of them in this thread, but I haven't seen a compelling one. Ron and Fred need to hang within the next few years, and HCGM when he retires.
Cle--in my opinion--is worthy, but I do concede there are some legitimate arguments against it. To me it's a worthy debate, but he's one of my all-time favorite Shockers, has some pretty impressive credentials, and had a tremendous impact on the program that many take for granted. I hope we see his number hanging some day.
Landry has a harder road. He does have All-American credentials, but his impact to the program is nowhere near the likes of AC, X, or FVV. Undoubtedly he is a hall of famer, but I'm not sure the "wow" factor is there to justify the rafters."It's amazing to watch Ron slide into that open area, Fred will find him and it's straight cash homie."--HCGMComment
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I thank Cle' for the shush moment when we were up like 12 against Loserville. I was surrounded by a sea of red in Atlanta. Cle' throws it down with such authority. All you heard was the dunk reverberating around that cavernous dome. I stood up from my seat and turned around throwing up my arms like, WTF are you gonna do about that? Lulville fans had been chirping all game long but now they had the fear of God in their faces. They knew it was over and the fat lady was warming up. I was thankful to get out of that arena alive.
I'm sorry I'm drunk. I was never able to tell that story because I had been bannedfrom this forum by a dbag.
T
...:coo.:
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The bar is high enough and that is making at least one legitimate 1st team All American list. Anything less will be lowering the bar. No one the modern era has reached that bar as of yet.Originally posted by wufan View PostComment
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"Might add that Cliff Livingston was a Playboy 1st team All-American . Believe it or not that was a legitimate and respected list at that time."
You just made this comment on an older post of mine, so I'll add a comment here.
WSU, in their Fact Book, does not include that Playboy rating for Cliff, so I'm going to assume they don't consider it legit. Since Cliff did not make 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team in any of the 5 ratings they do include in the book, I'm not going to consider it legit either.
As a note, Fred does not have a 1st team (or 2nd team) in any of those rankings either, but you can bet the farm he WILL be in the rafters. He also has something that Cliff and Antoine do not have, making at least 3rd team NCAA Consensus All-American (Early made 2nd team). -
Can't retire the #23 tho... that number has been immortalized by the great one.
t
...:cool.:
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Cliff Livingston disagrees. This whole theory about 1st Team AA is just a rumor that has spun out of control.Originally posted by Topshock View Post
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Getting your jersey retired isn't about what you have done in the pros or even your skill. It's about your production combined with the positive attention you brought to the University while here.
1) Stop retiring numbers, start retiring jerseys.
2) Then you can easily retire: Miller, Early, Van Vleet, Cotton, Baker
3) Because Shamet only spent his twilight years here, he wasn't able to produce enough to make it. But the good news for him is he gets a shot at the big time.
4) Perez was very productive, but is somewhat a victim of the state of the program, because he wasn't being brought up consistently in national conversations. Definitely a Wichita State hall-of-famer, but not a jersey retiring candidate.
5) Cotton was ESPN top-10 highlight reel after reel and a Defensive All American. He produced at a high rate and brought a ton of positive national attention to WSU. Retire his jersey.
6) I don't know anything about Jabali and his national recognition. If he was generating lots of positive national attention, then he would be a good candidate.Kung Wu say, man who read woman like book, prefer braille!Comment
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Excellent post. My only question is regarding Miller. Yes, he was the senior "face" of the program and appeared to be the difference between the success of 05-06 vs failure of 06-07, but there were 2 other key seniors, walk-ons, that were a big part of that glue. Also, had Miller had another year, could he have stopped/prevented the downward spiral of 06-07? Obviously, that team started the year 9-0 and had the talent without Miller.Originally posted by Kung Wu View Post
The 05-06 team was a team of balance. They had 7 players who averaged over 20 mpg and played 34 or all 35 games. Couisnard 29.6 mpg, Ogirri 29.0, Miller 28.0, Wilson 27.8, Braeuer 24.0, Bradley 22.6, and Martin 20.8. Preadom also played in 34 games and these 8 players accounted for about 94% of the minutes.
Miller did lead the team in scoring at 13.1, but Ogirri at 12.0, Wilson 11.3, and Couisnard 10.3 made up just over 2/3s of the team's scoring. Ogirri was the sniper at .442 from 3, but big man Wilson was .424 (42-99) taking pressure off the middle. Even their assists were balanced: Couisnard 3.0, Ogirri 2.8, Braeuer 2.7, Bradley 1.6, Wilson 1.5, and Miller 1.2.
My other problem is that Miller does not "stat out" that well for a career among WSU's top centers. He's definitely HoF, just not sure about the rafters.
Is it fair to retire a player's jersey based on the talent level of the players around him or the quality of the coaching and not possibly a "better" player due to the lack of these things?Comment
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