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  • #31
    I think hanging from the rafters should be for what they contributed to the WSU BB program not what they did for themselves or what they do after they leave. The only recent players that I feel deserving would be Ron and Fred. I also believe HCGM belongs up there.

    Comment


    • #32
      Cle is Marshall's best college player to date and it's not close. We haven't been the same or had "that guy" since he left and athletes like him don't grow on trees. Fred's game translates best to the NBA and Ron is the small town Kansas hero every rural kid dreams of becoming. They are all different and brought something unique to Wichita. However the three together were incredible and deserve the same fate, much like X, Cliff, and Carr.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by C0|dB|00ded View Post
        The only way Landry gets immortalized is if he becomes an NBA all-star and it makes PR sense to embellish his history at WSU. I personally love the kid but his mark seems small and short compared to Fred and Ron's 9+ years...


        T


        ...:cool:
        I don't think an NBA career should impact the decision.
        "I not sure that I've ever been around a more competitive player or young man than Fred VanVleet. I like to win more than 99.9% of the people in this world, but he may top me." -- Gregg Marshall 12/23/13 :peaceful:
        ---------------------------------------
        Remember when Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare:
        "We have to pass it, to find out what's in it".

        A physician called into a radio show and said:
        "That's the definition of a stool sample."

        Comment


        • im4wsu
          im4wsu commented
          Editing a comment
          Shock Top -- what would his NBA experience have to do with being a Shocker? The current qualifications are "consensus all-American" with no mention of what a player does BEFORE or AFTER being a Shocker. It might reflect on the coaching staff's ability to recruit, but not so much on being rafter material.

          If 3G recruited the world's best PG or PF, he scored 30.32 points, had 15.2 rebounds and 10.1 assists in three games at WSU before pulling a hamstring, left WSU to return home to UDub and played another year with essentially the same stats and was an All-American there, and went on to the NBA and broke all of Jordan/James records and won more MVPs and NBA championships than Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, would he, IYHO, qualify for rafters for his three games at WSU?

          Where would you draw the line?

        • C0|dB|00ded
          C0|dB|00ded commented
          Editing a comment
          Landry has been at Wichita State since 2015 and did not transfer to another school. If he becomes an all-star in the NBA he should be considered.


          T


          ...:cool:

        • Shock Top
          Shock Top commented
          Editing a comment
          Dude played his whole career here....

          So if Michael Jordon was never an AA, then UNC shouldn’t retire his number?

          I agree, there is a line, but it seems we’d never agree where that line is.

          Let’s hope Landry has enough NBA success that this discussion becomes valid!

      • #34
        Cold,I know Landry did not transfer -- obviously it was a contrived example. Suppose he went directly to the NBA directly after his three-game season at WSU and had all those NBA accolades, would you then say he qualified to be in ther rafters after three outstanding games?

        How does his performance in the NBA make his performance more valuable or less valuable? What if he is not an NBA All-Star, but rather has the best 3-point percentage in the NBA for a single season?

        Just for comparison, the only Rafter member that did not complete a full career at WSU was Cliff Levingston:
        Cliff Landry
        G 91 71
        GS 60 68
        MP 32.1 28.6
        FG 6.6 4.2
        FGA 12.2 8.7
        FG% 0.538 0.48
        2P 1.9
        2PA 3.6
        2P% 0.542
        3P 2.2
        3PA 5.1
        3P% 0.437
        FT 3 2.3
        FTA 4.9 2.8
        FT% 0.621 0.811
        TRB 10.6 3
        AST 1.6 4.1
        STL 0.9 0.8
        BLK 0.7 0.2
        TOV 2.8 1.5
        PF 3.1 2.1
        PTS 16.2 12.9
        "I not sure that I've ever been around a more competitive player or young man than Fred VanVleet. I like to win more than 99.9% of the people in this world, but he may top me." -- Gregg Marshall 12/23/13 :peaceful:
        ---------------------------------------
        Remember when Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare:
        "We have to pass it, to find out what's in it".

        A physician called into a radio show and said:
        "That's the definition of a stool sample."

        Comment


        • #35
          Thus far, all players that were All-American have made the rafters excluding Baker, VanVleet, Early, and Shamet, and Paul Miller.
          Livin the dream

          Comment


          • Topshock
            Topshock commented
            Editing a comment
            All players that were a 1st team All-American have made the rafters, no exceptions.

        • #36
          Originally posted by im4wsu View Post

          I don't think an NBA career should impact the decision.
          im4wsu. Your reflection of the qualifications are "The current qualifications are "consensus all-American" with no mention of what a player does BEFORE or AFTER being a Shocker. It might reflect on the coaching staff's ability to recruit, but not so much on being rafter material. "

          The correct definition of a Consensus all-american is that they have to be 1st Team all-americans on half of the lists. I may be wrong but to my knowledge, the only player(s) that we have in the rafters that is a Consensus AA is Dave Stallworth and maybe Xavier McDaniel. All of the other players in the rafters at Koch Arena do not pass this criteria. We have had others on some 2nd and 3rd Team AA lists but no other Consensus AA's.

          Comment


          • Topshock
            Topshock commented
            Editing a comment
            The criteria is at least one legitimate 1st team All-American list not consensus.

            "maybe Xavier McDaniel" He was on almost everyones 1st team list.

        • #37
          If a Shocker has a great NBA career they NEED to be in the rafters. Hypothetically let’s say we stick FVV and RB in the rafters, they have meh NBA careers. Let’s say Landry is an All-Star. Whenever Landry’s name is mentioned people will think of Wichita State. Landry would be a draw for recruits. Recruits on visits will say “I see FVV and Ron, where’s Landry?” “Oh he didn’t graduate.” “He wasn’t good enough.” “He didn’t accomplish enough.” All of which will sound ridiculous.

          Comment


          • #38
            I think one other consideration is that the rafters are for retired numbers. At this pace we will have ~ 10 players ready to have their number retired by the time Marshall leaves. That’s probably too many.
            Livin the dream

            Comment


            • another shocker
              another shocker commented
              Editing a comment
              have you seen how many retired jerseys they have at north carolina?

          • #39
            Originally posted by Shockm View Post

            im4wsu. Your reflection of the qualifications are "The current qualifications are "consensus all-American" with no mention of what a player does BEFORE or AFTER being a Shocker. It might reflect on the coaching staff's ability to recruit, but not so much on being rafter material. "

            The correct definition of a Consensus all-american is that they have to be 1st Team all-americans on half of the lists. I may be wrong but to my knowledge, the only player(s) that we have in the rafters that is a Consensus AA is Dave Stallworth and maybe Xavier McDaniel. All of the other players in the rafters at Koch Arena do not pass this criteria. We have had others on some 2nd and 3rd Team AA lists but no other Consensus AA's.
            Cleo I think qualifies, considering the All-American lists available at the time. Levingston was third-team, I believe and is the exception. Nonetheless, what I stated is my recollection of the criteria. I'm not sure what they defined as consensus, but I thought it was at least two of the major polls.

            "I not sure that I've ever been around a more competitive player or young man than Fred VanVleet. I like to win more than 99.9% of the people in this world, but he may top me." -- Gregg Marshall 12/23/13 :peaceful:
            ---------------------------------------
            Remember when Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare:
            "We have to pass it, to find out what's in it".

            A physician called into a radio show and said:
            "That's the definition of a stool sample."

            Comment


            • Shockm
              Shockm commented
              Editing a comment
              Wikipedia said Dave Stallworth and X were consensus AA’s. Antoine was a 3rd Team AA and Cleo was a 2X HM AA. Nothing on Cliff which surprised me. Anyway, we would only hang two players numbers by your standard of consensus AA. I think that Landry was named a 3rd Team AA last year.

              I would say that Warren Jabari, Fred VV, Ron Baker, Cle Early, and Landry all are worthy of debate for banners hanging in Koch Arena. I would not be as picky as you.

          • #40
            From the WSU Fact Book (I'm not including Honorable Mention)

            NCAA Consensus All-Americans (from the WSU Fact Book):
            1926-27 Ross McBurney 1st Team
            1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st Team
            1964-65 Dave Stallworth 2nd Team
            1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 3rd Team
            2013-14 Cleanthony Early 2nd Team
            2013-14 Fred VanVleet 3rd Team

            USWBA All-Americans
            1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
            1964-65 Dave Stallworth 1st
            1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 1st
            2013-14 Cleanthony Early 2nd

            AP All Americans
            1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
            1964-65 Dave Stallworth 2nd
            1982-83 Antoine Carr 3rd
            1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 1st
            2016-14 Cleanthony Early 3rd

            NABC
            1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
            1964-64 Dave Stallworth 2nd
            1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 3rd
            2013-14 Cleanthony Early 2nd
            2013-14 Fred VanVleet 3rd

            Sporting News
            1963-64 Dave Stallworth 2nd
            1964-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
            1982-83 Antoine Carr 1st
            2013-14 Fred VanVleet 3rd

            Someone tell me again that Cle should not be in the rafters?

            Comment


            • Topshock
              Topshock commented
              Editing a comment
              Might add that Cliff Livingston was a Playboy 1st team All-American . Believe it or not that was a legitimate and respected list at that time.

          • #41
            Originally posted by another shocker View Post
            fred van vleet (four year player, all-time assists leader) absolutely (!) belongs up in the rafters. right there with cliff, x, stallworth et al. fred made a mockery of many established programs in the ncaa tournament. 'still miss him.

            shamet? no way. 'much as i liked him, his last look was telegraphing slow-ass passes against minnie mouse marshall. best shooter i've ever seen at wichita state, got him a first round draft notice, but no.
            Fred set the assist record in his four years at WSU, breaking the record Warren Armstrong (Jabali) set in three years. Warren is not in the rafters, but should be.

            Comment


            • another shocker
              another shocker commented
              Editing a comment
              yes, warren armstrong/jabali belongs up in the rafters.. that's a no-brainer. same as fred van vleet.

              landry shamet does not. one more year at wichita state and then maybe.. but as it stands now, no.

            • ShockTalk
              ShockTalk commented
              Editing a comment
              Unfortunately, team success can weigh in on these kind of things. Warren also was not an All-American, but could/would have been with a better team.

          • #42
            How long after X graduated did he get put up in the rafters? I think that would set a reasonable precedent to when we would expect another round to go up. Unless, the athletic department drags their collective feet.
            Deuces Valley.
            ... No really, deuces.
            ________________
            "Enjoy the ride."

            - a smart man

            Comment


            • #43
              If they’ve been in a Carlos O’Kelly’s commercial they need to be in the CKA rafters.

              Comment


              • #44
                Originally posted by [URL="https://shockernet.net/member/10939-shockm"
                Shockm[/URL] commented

                Wikipedia said Dave Stallworth and X were consensus AA’s. Antoine was a 3rd Team AA and Cleo was a 2X HM AA. Nothing on Cliff which surprised me. Anyway, we would only hang two players numbers by your standard of consensus AA. I think that Landry was named a 3rd Team AA last year.
                I would say that Warren Jabari, Fred VV, Ron Baker, Cle Early, and Landry all are worthy of debate for banners hanging in Koch Arena. I would not be as picky as you.
                Not my standards, just what I understood the standards to be. There has been discussion in the past as to whether Cliff met the qualifications. My opinion is he probably came in on AC's coattail. The others are legit for the standards (i understood them to be conseneus all-American, not necessarily 1st team, but don't know that would include HM).

                Jabali (Armstrong) did not gain AA honors, but would be worthy in my book. He might be one that post-WSU experience factors into being omitted from the rafters.



                "I not sure that I've ever been around a more competitive player or young man than Fred VanVleet. I like to win more than 99.9% of the people in this world, but he may top me." -- Gregg Marshall 12/23/13 :peaceful:
                ---------------------------------------
                Remember when Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare:
                "We have to pass it, to find out what's in it".

                A physician called into a radio show and said:
                "That's the definition of a stool sample."

                Comment


                • #45
                  From my post #40:

                  NCAA Consensus All-Americans: Stallworth (2), McDaniel, Early, VanVleet, and Burney.

                  Number of times players appeared on the 5 top All-American lists (not counting HM):
                  Stallworth 10
                  McDaniel 4
                  Early 4
                  Carr 2
                  VanVleet 2

                  Still waiting for some posters to say Early is not worthy.

                  Comment

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