Rafter Material?

[B1ShockFan]

I think hanging from the rafters should be for what they contributed to the WSU BB program not what they did for themselves or what they do after they leave. The only recent players that I feel deserving would be Ron and Fred. I also believe HCGM belongs up there.

[Shockerman]

Cle is Marshall's best college player to date and it's not close. We haven't been the same or had "that guy" since he left and athletes like him don't grow on trees. Fred's game translates best to the NBA and Ron is the small town Kansas hero every rural kid dreams of becoming. They are all different and brought something unique to Wichita. However the three together were incredible and deserve the same fate, much like X, Cliff, and Carr.

[im4wsu]

The only way Landry gets immortalized is if he becomes an NBA all-star and it makes PR sense to embellish his history at WSU. I personally love the kid but his mark seems small and short compared to Fred and Ron's 9+ years...


T


...:cool:

I don't think an NBA career should impact the decision.

[im4wsu]

Shock Top -- what would his NBA experience have to do with being a Shocker? The current qualifications are "consensus all-American" with no mention of what a player does BEFORE or AFTER being a Shocker. It might reflect on the coaching staff's ability to recruit, but not so much on being rafter material.

If 3G recruited the world's best PG or PF, he scored 30.32 points, had 15.2 rebounds and 10.1 assists in three games at WSU before pulling a hamstring, left WSU to return home to UDub and played another year with essentially the same stats and was an All-American there, and went on to the NBA and broke all of Jordan/James records and won more MVPs and NBA championships than Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, would he, IYHO, qualify for rafters for his three games at WSU?

Where would you draw the line?

[C0|dB|00ded]

Landry has been at Wichita State since 2015 and did not transfer to another school. If he becomes an all-star in the NBA he should be considered.


T


...:cool:

[Shock Top]

Dude played his whole career here....

So if Michael Jordon was never an AA, then UNC shouldn’t retire his number?

I agree, there is a line, but it seems we’d never agree where that line is.

Let’s hope Landry has enough NBA success that this discussion becomes valid!

[im4wsu]

Cold,I know Landry did not transfer -- obviously it was a contrived example. Suppose he went directly to the NBA directly after his three-game season at WSU and had all those NBA accolades, would you then say he qualified to be in ther rafters after three outstanding games?

How does his performance in the NBA make his performance more valuable or less valuable? What if he is not an NBA All-Star, but rather has the best 3-point percentage in the NBA for a single season?

Just for comparison, the only Rafter member that did not complete a full career at WSU was Cliff Levingston:

	Cliff	Landry
G	91	71
GS	60	68
MP	32.1	28.6
FG	6.6	4.2
FGA	12.2	8.7
FG%	0.538	0.48
2P		1.9
2PA		3.6
2P%		0.542
3P		2.2
3PA		5.1
3P%		0.437
FT	3	2.3
FTA	4.9	2.8
FT%	0.621	0.811
TRB	10.6	3
AST	1.6	4.1
STL	0.9	0.8
BLK	0.7	0.2
TOV	2.8	1.5
PF	3.1	2.1
PTS	16.2	12.9

[wufan]

Thus far, all players that were All-American have made the rafters excluding Baker, VanVleet, Early, and Shamet, and Paul Miller.

[Topshock]

All players that were a 1st team All-American have made the rafters, no exceptions.

[Shockm]

I don't think an NBA career should impact the decision.

im4wsu. Your reflection of the qualifications are "The current qualifications are "consensus all-American" with no mention of what a player does BEFORE or AFTER being a Shocker. It might reflect on the coaching staff's ability to recruit, but not so much on being rafter material. "

The correct definition of a Consensus all-american is that they have to be 1st Team all-americans on half of the lists. I may be wrong but to my knowledge, the only player(s) that we have in the rafters that is a Consensus AA is Dave Stallworth and maybe Xavier McDaniel. All of the other players in the rafters at Koch Arena do not pass this criteria. We have had others on some 2nd and 3rd Team AA lists but no other Consensus AA's.

[Topshock]

The criteria is at least one legitimate 1st team All-American list not consensus.

"maybe Xavier McDaniel" He was on almost everyones 1st team list.

[AndShock]

If a Shocker has a great NBA career they NEED to be in the rafters. Hypothetically let’s say we stick FVV and RB in the rafters, they have meh NBA careers. Let’s say Landry is an All-Star. Whenever Landry’s name is mentioned people will think of Wichita State. Landry would be a draw for recruits. Recruits on visits will say “I see FVV and Ron, where’s Landry?” “Oh he didn’t graduate.” “He wasn’t good enough.” “He didn’t accomplish enough.” All of which will sound ridiculous.

[wufan]

I think one other consideration is that the rafters are for retired numbers. At this pace we will have ~ 10 players ready to have their number retired by the time Marshall leaves. That’s probably too many.

[another shocker]

have you seen how many retired jerseys they have at north carolina?

[im4wsu]

im4wsu. Your reflection of the qualifications are "The current qualifications are "consensus all-American" with no mention of what a player does BEFORE or AFTER being a Shocker. It might reflect on the coaching staff's ability to recruit, but not so much on being rafter material. "

The correct definition of a Consensus all-american is that they have to be 1st Team all-americans on half of the lists. I may be wrong but to my knowledge, the only player(s) that we have in the rafters that is a Consensus AA is Dave Stallworth and maybe Xavier McDaniel. All of the other players in the rafters at Koch Arena do not pass this criteria. We have had others on some 2nd and 3rd Team AA lists but no other Consensus AA's.

Cleo I think qualifies, considering the All-American lists available at the time. Levingston was third-team, I believe and is the exception. Nonetheless, what I stated is my recollection of the criteria. I'm not sure what they defined as consensus, but I thought it was at least two of the major polls.

[Shockm]

Wikipedia said Dave Stallworth and X were consensus AA’s. Antoine was a 3rd Team AA and Cleo was a 2X HM AA. Nothing on Cliff which surprised me. Anyway, we would only hang two players numbers by your standard of consensus AA. I think that Landry was named a 3rd Team AA last year.

I would say that Warren Jabari, Fred VV, Ron Baker, Cle Early, and Landry all are worthy of debate for banners hanging in Koch Arena. I would not be as picky as you.

[ShockTalk]

From the WSU Fact Book (I'm not including Honorable Mention)

NCAA Consensus All-Americans (from the WSU Fact Book):
1926-27 Ross McBurney 1st Team
1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st Team
1964-65 Dave Stallworth 2nd Team
1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 3rd Team
2013-14 Cleanthony Early 2nd Team
2013-14 Fred VanVleet 3rd Team

USWBA All-Americans
1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
1964-65 Dave Stallworth 1st
1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 1st
2013-14 Cleanthony Early 2nd

AP All Americans
1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
1964-65 Dave Stallworth 2nd
1982-83 Antoine Carr 3rd
1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 1st
2016-14 Cleanthony Early 3rd

NABC
1963-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
1964-64 Dave Stallworth 2nd
1984-85 Xavier McDaniel 3rd
2013-14 Cleanthony Early 2nd
2013-14 Fred VanVleet 3rd

Sporting News
1963-64 Dave Stallworth 2nd
1964-64 Dave Stallworth 1st
1982-83 Antoine Carr 1st
2013-14 Fred VanVleet 3rd

Someone tell me again that Cle should not be in the rafters?

[Topshock]

Might add that Cliff Livingston was a Playboy 1st team All-American . Believe it or not that was a legitimate and respected list at that time.

[1979Shocker]

fred van vleet (four year player, all-time assists leader) absolutely (!) belongs up in the rafters. right there with cliff, x, stallworth et al. fred made a mockery of many established programs in the ncaa tournament. 'still miss him.

shamet? no way. 'much as i liked him, his last look was telegraphing slow-ass passes against minnie mouse marshall. best shooter i've ever seen at wichita state, got him a first round draft notice, but no.

Fred set the assist record in his four years at WSU, breaking the record Warren Armstrong (Jabali) set in three years. Warren is not in the rafters, but should be.

[another shocker]

yes, warren armstrong/jabali belongs up in the rafters.. that's a no-brainer. same as fred van vleet.

landry shamet does not. one more year at wichita state and then maybe.. but as it stands now, no.

[ShockTalk]

Unfortunately, team success can weigh in on these kind of things. Warren also was not an All-American, but could/would have been with a better team.

[ShockerFever]

How long after X graduated did he get put up in the rafters? I think that would set a reasonable precedent to when we would expect another round to go up. Unless, the athletic department drags their collective feet.

[DwShock]

If they’ve been in a Carlos O’Kelly’s commercial they need to be in the CKA rafters.

[im4wsu]

Shockm[/URL] commented

Wikipedia said Dave Stallworth and X were consensus AA’s. Antoine was a 3rd Team AA and Cleo was a 2X HM AA. Nothing on Cliff which surprised me. Anyway, we would only hang two players numbers by your standard of consensus AA. I think that Landry was named a 3rd Team AA last year.
I would say that Warren Jabari, Fred VV, Ron Baker, Cle Early, and Landry all are worthy of debate for banners hanging in Koch Arena. I would not be as picky as you.

Not my standards, just what I understood the standards to be. There has been discussion in the past as to whether Cliff met the qualifications. My opinion is he probably came in on AC's coattail. The others are legit for the standards (i understood them to be conseneus all-American, not necessarily 1st team, but don't know that would include HM).

Jabali (Armstrong) did not gain AA honors, but would be worthy in my book. He might be one that post-WSU experience factors into being omitted from the rafters.

[ShockTalk]

From my post #40:

NCAA Consensus All-Americans: Stallworth (2), McDaniel, Early, VanVleet, and Burney.

Number of times players appeared on the 5 top All-American lists (not counting HM):
Stallworth 10
McDaniel 4
Early 4
Carr 2
VanVleet 2

Still waiting for some posters to say Early is not worthy.