What letter grade do you give the 2017-18 team this year?

[CBB_Fan]

So you think we somehow lose to Loyola 2+ times? A team we beat by an average of 14 last year.

We don't need to lose to Loyola two plus times. We need to lose to them once, and to another MVC team once. And Loyola is ~9 PPP better this year than last, while we are ~7 PPP worse. Loyola is significantly better than the Illinois State team that thrashed us 76-62 @ Illinois State; they'd be favored at home. And the rest of the Valley is stronger this year than last.

Flame out in the MVC tournament, tie for first with a 16-2 record, miss the tournament. I agree with AndShock.

[ShockCrazy]

We don't need to lose to Loyola two plus times. We need to lose to them once, and to another MVC team once. And Loyola is ~9 PPP better this year than last, while we are ~7 PPP worse. Loyola is significantly better than the Illinois State team that thrashed us 76-62 @ Illinois State; they'd be favored at home. And the rest of the Valley is stronger this year than last.

Flame out in the MVC tournament, tie for first with a 16-2 record, miss the tournament. I agree with AndShock.

So we lose to a team that is worse than this set of players has ever lost to? Got it! And we would have to lose to them 2+ because otherwise this team in every single way compares better than last year a team that won the conference. Non-con 10-2 vs 10-3 non-con last year, and this year had much better wins on the resume, comparing @OSU, @Baylor and N Marquette to @OU and @CSU last year.

[asiseeit]

Had we won the Marshal game and played WVU close but lost I would have graded a "C" - didn't happen.
Had we beaten WVU and made the S16 I would have given a strong "B+ and an "A" for F8

[CBB_Fan]

So we lose to a team that is worse than this set of players has ever lost to? Got it! And we would have to lose to them 2+ because otherwise this team in every single way compares better than last year a team that won the conference. Non-con 10-2 vs 10-3 non-con last year, and this year had much better wins on the resume, comparing @OSU, @Baylor and N Marquette to @OU and @CSU last year.

Oh, so we have magical immunity to losing to teams worse than than worst team we've lost to so far? Good to know! I'm glad the team will have an assured victory in the upcoming match versus #105 Marshall, which after all is worse than every team they've lost to so far.

The MVC outside of us in 2017 went 49, 97, 134, 150, 154, 169, 199, 217, 258. This year they go 35, 120, 123, 124, 134, 136, 139, 144, 151 (Valpo), 158.

So the Valley would be more difficult, particularly at the bottom. You might think we beat the #144 team 100 times out of 100, but that's just not true. In fact, just swapping out truly impossible to lose games like the bottom of the AAC with possible but unlikely games against the bottom of the MVC might result in a loss over the 5 or so games. The worst team in the MVC was 150 spots and 11 PPP better than the worse team in the AAC.

I easily see us dropping one of two games to Loyola and one of 16 games to a 120-158 team. And the 16 victories wouldn't mean anything in regards to an at-large.

[wsushockerdude]

Yikes. Looking at the poll results and seeing 20% of you at a D or an F...how high were your expectations? Go back to Lawrence if you want that kinda crap, but don't forget to stop by Wal-Mart and pick up a t-shirt on the way.

Moved to a new conference, took second, had a sellout arena every game, played a FANTASTIC non-con slate and went 2-1 against the Big 12, beat a top 5 team on the road, had a top 10 matchup in Koch, saw Reaves go 7-7 from deep in 10 minutes...I had a ton of fun. Could have ended better, but that will always happen.

B.

[ShockCrazy]

Oh, so we have magical immunity to losing to teams worse than than worst team we've lost to so far? Good to know! I'm glad the team will have an assured victory in the upcoming match versus #105 Marshall, which after all is worse than every team they've lost to so far.

The MVC outside of us in 2017 went 49, 97, 134, 150, 154, 169, 199, 217, 258. This year they go 35, 120, 123, 124, 134, 136, 139, 144, 151 (Valpo), 158.

So the Valley would be more difficult, particularly at the bottom. You might think we beat the #144 team 100 times out of 100, but that's just not true. In fact, just swapping out truly impossible to lose games like the bottom of the AAC with possible but unlikely games against the bottom of the MVC might result in a loss over the 5 or so games. The worst team in the MVC was 150 spots and 11 PPP better than the worse team in the AAC.

I easily see us dropping one of two games to Loyola and one of 16 games to a 120-158 team. And the 16 victories wouldn't mean anything in regards to an at-large.

Ok, I think I'm done with this board for a while, this is flat insanity. This team has proven time and time again it beats those teams. Over a massive sample size it's never happened, yeah I feel pretty damn confident another 16 games and they take all 16 of them. I have no idea what the bottom of the AAC has to do with the bottom of the MVC since we've beaten them all without issue regardless(and it was a whopping 2 games against worse teams than the Valley). I'm also not convinced Loyola would beat us, could they? Yes, but I don't think they take 2 from us. We win the Valley if we were in it this year, there should be zero doubt, you are aware Loyola went 15-3 in conference right? Do people honestly think this team got that much worse than last year? Or maybe just maybe the night in and night out competition against muuuuuuuch better teams maybe was a much tougher struggle than the Valley has been or is now.

[CBB_Fan]

Ok, I think I'm done with this board for a while, this is flat insanity. This team has proven time and time again it beats those teams. Over a massive sample size it's never happened, yeah I feel pretty damn confident another 16 games and they take all 16 of them. I have no idea what the bottom of the AAC has to do with the bottom of the MVC since we've beaten them all without issue regardless(and it was a whopping 2 games against worse teams than the Valley). I'm also not convinced Loyola would beat us, could they? Yes, but I don't think they take 2 from us. We win the Valley if we were in it this year, there should be zero doubt, you are aware Loyola went 15-3 in conference right? Do people honestly think this team got that much worse than last year? Or maybe just maybe the night in and night out competition against muuuuuuuch better teams maybe was a much tougher struggle than the Valley has been or is now.

Yes, I believe we are worse. The stats say we are worse. The stats against every level of team are worse than last year: awful, mediocre, good, great. All lower. We played worse against Arkansas State (+9) than against Saint Louis (+30), worse against Tulane (+7) than against Missouri State (+18), worse against Houston (-14) than against Louisville (-9). At every level of competition we played worse, but particularly against the mediocre teams the MVC is filled with.

We played seven games in the AAC that weren't just against teams worse than the worst team in the Valley, but significantly worse. We won those games by 10, 10, 38, 35, 20, 19, and 7. Add ~10 to those games and suddenly we have at least one loss and two single possession games.

I'm just coming and saying it. This team wasn't as good as it was last year. You act like this team has never, ever, lost or played badly against poor teams (and don't spend even a second to think that the MVC this year isn't the same as last year). Arkansas State, the 2nd to worst team in the Sun Belt conference had a close game with us and led at half time. Throw out 2012-2017, because those teams wouldn't have let a team that bad go for 50 points in a half.

This team could lose to those teams. This team did lose to one of those teams, when Marshall knocked us out of the tournament. Your "massive sample size" forgets literally our last game. And losing @Illinois State in '16. And losing to Illinois State in the semi-finals in '15 and '12. And losing @ SIU and on senior night to Evansville in '13. And losing in 3OT to Drake in '12.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Yikes. Looking at the poll results and seeing 20% of you at a D or an F...how high were your expectations? Go back to Lawrence if you want that kinda crap, but don't forget to stop by Wal-Mart and pick up a t-shirt on the way.

National championship expectations for a college basketball team in Kansas are no longer reserved solely for the one in Lawrence. I think our fans have every right and reason to think this program is capable of it, just like I think KU fans have every right and reason to think theirs will win it (notwithstanding the fact they are also insufferable assholes).

Look no further than the WSU locker room, which has a grayed-out image of the national championship trophy--a symbol of our coaching staff's aspirations and expectations.

This year was our best shot at that trophy since 2014. We came up WAY short. That's disappointing. But that doesn't mean expectations were inappropriate or misplaced. I can understand some fans' feelings.

I also understand this team accomplished many things that they won't earn hardware or banners for.

[wsushockerdude]

I think we have a shot at winning a championship...but we have to also understand that only one team out of 351 gets to do that. Realistically, 50 or so teams have a shot every year, and even THOSE odds are stacked incredibly high against us. I just want to keep expectations realistic. We could win three before I die, or we could not win won for two centuries. Neither would surprise me.

[ShockCrazy]

Yes, I believe we are worse. The stats say we are worse. The stats against every level of team are worse than last year: awful, mediocre, good, great. All lower. We played worse against Arkansas State (+9) than against Saint Louis (+30), worse against Tulane (+7) than against Missouri State (+18), worse against Houston (-14) than against Louisville (-9). At every level of competition we played worse, but particularly against the mediocre teams the MVC is filled with.

We played seven games in the AAC that weren't just against teams worse than the worst team in the Valley, but significantly worse. We won those games by 10, 10, 38, 35, 20, 19, and 7. Add ~10 to those games and suddenly we have at least one loss and two single possession games.

I'm just coming and saying it. This team wasn't as good as it was last year. You act like this team has never, ever, lost or played badly against poor teams (and don't spend even a second to think that the MVC this year isn't the same as last year). Arkansas State, the 2nd to worst team in the Sun Belt conference had a close game with us and led at half time. Throw out 2012-2017, because those teams wouldn't have let a team that bad go for 50 points in a half.

This team could lose to those teams. This team did lose to one of those teams, when Marshall knocked us out of the tournament. Your "massive sample size" forgets literally our last game. And losing @Illinois State in '16. And losing to Illinois State in the semi-finals in '15 and '12. And losing @ SIU and on senior night to Evansville in '13. And losing in 3OT to Drake in '12.

Do you read my words at all? I said these players haven't lost to worse teams. The worst loss they have is the @ISUr loss, which matches the 2nd best Valley team this year. It may not have been as good as last year(I don't actually believe that there is much difference) but it still wins the Valley easily. You also only focus on the negative(picking and choosing arbitrary game comparisons is insanely stupid, you could also compare N Louisville to @Cinci or H Houston better than H OSU last year, but I guess that wouldn't work for your narrative), you are ignoring the fact that this year's team has 3 wins better than the best it had last year.

[CBB_Fan]

Do you read my words at all? I said these players haven't lost to worse teams. The worst loss they have is the @ISUr loss, which matches the 2nd best Valley team this year. It may not have been as good as last year(I don't actually believe that there is much difference) but it still wins the Valley easily. You also only focus on the negative(picking and choosing arbitrary game comparisons is insanely stupid, you could also compare N Louisville to @Cinci or H Houston better than H OSU last year, but I guess that wouldn't work for your narrative), you are ignoring the fact that this year's team has 3 wins better than the best it had last year.

I'm aware that you said they haven't lost to worse teams. No matter how that is read, you are simply wrong: they've lost to teams worse than them, and they've lost to teams worse than Temple or Marshall.

There is absolutely no reason to assume they'd play better than average against mediocre teams. They simply didn't this year. UCF, Temple, Tulsa, and Tulane were mediocre and all presented dogfights. Marshall was mediocre and knocked us out of the tournament (they weren't even an A or B ranked game in KenPom).

And "average" is winning 85% of away games against non-Loyola teams in the MVC this year and 95% of home games. And that's not pulled from my behind, you can check it out yourself on https://gamepredict.us/kenpom. And for the non-mathematically inclined, that means our chance of going 16-0 is (.95)^8 * (.80)^8, or only about 11%. It' a 40-60 we lose a game at home, 85-15 we lose an away game.

That's not arbitrary, that's what the computer metrics say: We would most likely split with Loyola and lose an away game to another team. Lose in the MVC tournament, and that's not a pretty resume. And given the way we ended the year, winning even the MVC tournament would have been a lot of ask.

[ShockdaWorld]

Arguing purely for the sake of argument less than a week out. This could be a very long offseason...

[Cdizzle]

It always is. One of the top 3 reasons prolonging the season is of utmost importance.