Shoot, Drive, or Pass

[Shaqness]

I'm wondering about this years version of offense that Gregg Marshall is running. (I know and will continue to say our teams problem is defense).
Freddy the Man was quoted on last years trip to the roundhouse that Gregg's offense is different (with Landry) than when Freddy has there.

A few questions that come to mind.
1. Where's the drive game? I see many instances of ZB or RK driving the baseline or getting in the middle. Conner drives in sometimes, but most the time, he pulls up for a long two (because he can make em'). Landry has driven to the rack like 5 times all season. I'm just not seeing this very much in our game at all.

2. Bigs on the perimeter? Every play, at some point our 4 & 5 are at the top of the key, stuck with the ball, and waiting to pass it off (or shoot). I understand why we would have 4's & 5's screening our guards. But why are our bigs at the three point line, rather than posting up or screening?

3. Where are the post ups? I know we do these often, but why aren't we posting up our talented bigs 100x a game? Shaq gets double teamed, I get that. But seriously, our bigs are a strength, and I don't feel they are being taken advantage of.

Another question is are these things related? In my pea-sized brain, I imagine that having RK, DW, and SM on the perimeter makes it hard to take someone off the dribble, or post up our bigs. With Freddy the Man, we drove and posted a lot. I know all Reaves, CF, and LS are capable. I miss the good of fashioned high-ball screen with a talented guard rising to the rack. (Ahem, Landry is faster, taller, and finishes better than a collegiate FVV, RB, TK)

I just wonder if the scheme we are currently on is hurting those parts of our game. Anybody know how to put this offense on paper, so I understand what I'm looking at?


I realize that our offense looks different during zone def.

[SB Shock]

I thought this was going to be timeout promotion.

[Shaqness]

Just as exciting.

[IndianaShocker]

Never have been a fan of our zone schemes. Too much dribbling, don't like the spacing, and we ball screen zones more than anyone. Seems way to complicated.

You beat zones with spacing, attacking gaps, making 2 guard 1, sharp ball movement, attacking the middle for shots/high low action/and quick skips.

Man offense - cluttered, we don't have a play through guy who creates for himself & others against top competition. This should be Landry but he doesn't have a killer's mindset right now & seems to be avoiding contact this season.

[Aargh]

Let's look at a timeline for Shamet.

Second half of last season, he was a great PG against teams that were badly overmatched. Then in the NCAA tourney, there wasn't any game film that could provide decent scouting material. When he took over the game against UK, Calipari was probably going back to his notes to find out who #11 was.

Over the summer, instead of working out with the team and Rosenboom, he spent the first part of the summer at Elite camps and then spent 3 months watching the muscles in his right leg atrophy. He's probably still not back to full strength in that leg and that's probably affecting his ability to beat defenders on the dribble or cut hard on screens. He just barely got clearance to play shortly after the start of the season.

He's still really great against overmatched teams. So is Haynes- Jones. There's lots of film on him and we're in league play where a lot of time is spent analyzing film. Now opposing teams know what he wants to do and how he wants to do it. He killed Houston a couple weeks ago. Houston adjusted and he went from looking like a lottery pick to looking a nice D1 PG. The AAC has better, quicker guards than the Valley. Between some possible effects of the down time and the quicker guards, Shamet looks slow against the better guards we've seen this year.

Shamet is starting to look like a PG the way Baker looked like a PG. They both were converted to the position after they got to WSU. Baker had an advantage because he was so incredibly physical. Baker was built more like an NFL running back. Shamet isn't going to run over a lot of people or finish through contact.

Baker - 6'4", 220
FVV - 6'0", 205
Shamet - 6'4" (probably 6'5") - 180. He only outweighs Reaves by 6 pounds, and everyone thinks Reaves is skin and bones.

So, add it all up. Converted wing playing PG, half a step slow from injury, built a little light to play through contact. Playing against guys who've played PG probably from Jr. High on.

Find a 6'5" guy who can play PG, can drive to the basket past skilled 6'2" PG's, and can hit 50% from 3 and I'll show you an NBA lottery pick when he's 19.

[ShockerFever]

1. Where's the drive game? I see many instances of ZB or RK driving the baseline or getting in the middle. Conner drives in sometimes, but most the time, he pulls up for a long two (because he can make em'). Landry has driven to the rack like 5 times all season. I'm just not seeing this very much in our game at all.

SHJ drives to the hoop.

[ShockTalk]

Never have been a fan of our zone schemes. Too much dribbling, don't like the spacing, and we ball screen zones more than anyone. Seems way to complicated.

You beat zones with spacing, attacking gaps, making 2 guard 1, sharp ball movement, attacking the middle for shots/high low action/and quick skips.

Man offense - cluttered, we don't have a play through guy who creates for himself & others against top competition. This should be Landry but he doesn't have a killer's mindset right now & seems to be avoiding contact this season.

I agree with much of what you say here. Smithson used to play pass, dribble, dribble, pass, dribble, dribble. Now, we seem to play a lot of pass, hold, pass, fake shot, hold, pass, and so forth.

Passing is not fast and crisp, with very little setup to skip pass. Austin might make the best passes on the team. Better passing will also allow for more penetration with kick outs. If so many players were not basically standing around, we might see a better pace and more energy.

I'm not a fan of starting both Brown and Kelly. They both have energy and have their attributes, but neither is strong in a set offense. I love Kelly and Brown and the energy they bring to the floor. I especially like Kelly's offensive rebounding. However, I'd like to see more of a scoring threat on the floor at all times and having only one of the floor at a time might help that.

I'd also like to see less mass platooning, whether it be all 5 or just 2 or 3. Mix them in one at a time.

[Dan]

Our guards take the pick to try to get open for a 3 rather than drive into the interior. We just don’t really have players that are willing to penetrate and kick.

[SB Shock]

Maybe LS doesn’t drive as much now because he wants to protect the product for the NBA draft.

[WSUwatcher]

Seems unlikely, inasmuch as there may not be one for him if he can't demonstrate that skill. I'd say Aargh's guess makes more sense.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

Our guards take the pick to try to get open for a 3 rather than drive into the interior. We just don’t really have players that are willing to penetrate and kick.

And that has made us predictable. And the fact that we are peeling off from the screens early, or not grinding up against it to peel the defender off of it, makes getting the shot off impossible.

[ShockerFever]

Maybe LS doesn’t drive as much now because he wants to protect the product for the NBA draft.

NBA Draft?

lol, good one.

[Shaqness]

And that has made us predictable. And the fact that we are peeling off from the screens early, or not grinding up against it to peel the defender off of it, makes getting the shot off impossible.

Our guards take the pick to try to get open for a 3 rather than drive into the interior. We just don’t really have players that are willing to penetrate and kick.

I agree with much of what you say here. Smithson used to play pass, dribble, dribble, pass, dribble, dribble. Now, we seem to play a lot of pass, hold, pass, fake shot, hold, pass, and so forth.

Passing is not fast and crisp, with very little setup to skip pass. Austin might make the best passes on the team. Better passing will also allow for more penetration with kick outs. If so many players were not basically standing around, we might see a better pace and more energy.

I guess I am more looking for what our scheme actually is, rather than picking apart what players are doing executing poorly. I agree our guards, mostly Shamet, are using screen for the sole purpose of finding an open 3. I now our passing hasn't been exceptional. I know we spend a lot of time playing hot potato. But what is our offense intending when it leaves RK, DW, or SHaq at the top of the key beyond the arc?

[swiltar71]

I have no idea what our scheme is. I think HCGM runs a lot of set plays that our opponents have been taking away. It really is 5 against 3 when RK and ZB are in together offensively. Every team would gladly leave those 2 open to double Shaq, Landry and Conner. I love what RK brings, but ZB is nowhere near a defensive stopper and he's a massive offensive liability. Give me Reaves or Mcduff any day.

[Shaqness]

I have no idea what our scheme is. I think HCGM runs a lot of set plays that our opponents have been taking away. It really is 5 against 3 when RK and ZB are in together offensively. Every team would gladly leave those 2 open to double Shaq, Landry and Conner. I love what RK brings, but ZB is nowhere near a defensive stopper and he's a massive offensive liability. Give me Reaves or Mcduff any day.

I find it silly the growing number of people complaining about ZB and RK being on the court at the same time.What do you actually expect out of their replacements? Another three point shooter? A player that drives? A post up player? We already hardly drive as a team, and post-ups are becoming less and less common.

RK is an offensive player. He's 2ns in the nation in offensive rebounding percentage. That gives us more possessions, and more chances for buckets. He's giving our three assists and scoring 5 point a game. No he isn't a shooting or post up threat. But he can play the middle of the zone well. He can find the open guy. He is our Tristan Thompson.

ZB - What are you not getting from ZB that you would get with his replacements? Duff has a inconsistent jumper. Multiple Air balls. Reaves nor Duff have driven the ball, same for the rest of the team (save for CF). MM gets rebounds. ZB gets 1 less per game than MM. Basically, the only offensive reason to replace Brown would be to add another rebounder (MM), or add another jump shooter(AR).

If my pea-sized brain was to attempt to change the lineup, it would be to add AR instead of ZB. But, clearly that isn't what is happening and I doubt it will. Any situation where you take RK out of the game, you are giving up our best rebounder, giving up mental and physical toughness, giving up his assists, and his steady scoring.

But it has become clear that no one has any idea what kind of offense we are running, or what we are supposed to be looking at.

[ShockTalk]

I think many here are more concerned with ZB and RK playing at the same time. The amount of minutes is secondary to this.

Maybe the type of offense we're running is not clear because 1) we're not running it well and 2) opposing quality teams are defending it well and we're not adjusting.

For me, as an armchair coach, I've never understood HCGM when he talks about how well or not they ran their "motion offense" during a game. With my limited knowledge, I seldom see what I understand to be a motion offense.

[MadDog]

Totally agree with Swiltar71 on this. We are so weak at the 3 spot right now. ZB having a very poor senior season imo. I think we need to start playing McDuf Landry type minutes at 3 and see how that works as he sheds the rust