Shocker defense

[BOBB]

Not considering myself an expert (I have a different day job than coach) but initially we went under ball screens which doesn't work with quick shooters. Going over requires the one guarding the screener to flash out AND defend against a roll pass. This got us into trouble. Flashing often left the screener open for a pass requiring another defender to slide over. Someone's open in that scenario. Perhaps seems too simplistic, but we didn't flash with our hands up, but down frequently. Admittedly, Young is both an excellent shooter and passer. May be we just ran into an NBA caliber buzz saw.
I'm open to other analysis.

Less concerned with Young's shots, than the OU version of Ethan Wragge. Seemed like I was having Deja Vu all over again.

[Eric]

I think the deficiencies will get corrected sooner than later. I think there might be a little bit of “reading our own press clippings” going on from the coaching staff to the players. It’ll get fixed.

[CBB_Fan]

We are missing our top two ball hawks, Smith to transfer and McDuffie to injury. Because of that, most of our lineups lack significant pressure on passing angles. Ours guards play more conservatively rather than gambling for steals, and our bigs mostly lack the lateral quickness to jump the lanes. Zach and Samajae are the best on the team, but we don't have a single nationally ranked hawk (for reference, Jones leads with a 2% steal rate; the best in the country is over 6%). For internal comparison, the year we were #1 in defense we had 5 players with the 2.5% steal rate or higher (4 nationally ranked).

How does that translate to 3s? Our opponents aren't killing us with stepback or pull-up 3s. We are getting killed with the 2nd or 3rd pass. The reason Young could waltz into the heart of our defense on a screen and hit Manek consistently is that he had no fear of his pass getting intercepted, even with 2, 3, 4 bodies near by.

The ball moves faster than any player. It isn't possible to always have a guy within 5 ft of every possible shooter. Wichita State hasn't closed out well, but on second glance that isn't the issue. Against a defense with no pressure, a solid offense should be able to do what Oklahoma did to us: make space by screening, passing, and moving without the ball. Every pass, every rotation, the offense will get closer to a quality look. The offense moves as fast as the ball, the defense as fast as its defenders.

This lack of ball pressure is actually worse than our TO% would show. 15.8% of our opponent's possessions end in a TO, but only 6.1% end in a steal. Most of our TOs are charges, offensive fouls, and out of bound calls. We only get our hands on the ball in about 1 in 20 possessions. In other words, for every 1 time we threaten to pick off Young passing back to Manek we give up about 20 quality looks from beyond the arc. And while even the best teams don't do better than 1 in 10, they make the other 9 worse by changing passing angles or forcing passes to more guarded defenders.

Scheme-wise, the other thing hurting us is ball-screen defense. Our bigs aren't fast enough to switch (imagine Shaq trying to go 1v1 versus Young or another fast PG), and aren't doing a good job slowing the guard by hedging off the screen (Young was able to go full-speed towards the rim a few times while Landry/Brown/Reaves were behind the screener). This leaves our guards in a bad spot. If they go under the screen they give great looks to today's 3PT shooters, while going over gives an open route to the basket. Landry/Reaves/Conner don't do a great job swimming through a screen to stay in front of their man as well.

[BOBB]

This sounds right. In retrospect we really haven't put much pressure on the ball handler. I hated staring at the TV and and yelling "NO" every time I saw Manek standing at the line ready to shoot.

[Shockers5150]

McDuffie will make a huge difference. The close out will be better, the press will be by better, rebounding, 3 point threat... He improves every aspect.

[Aargh]

Less concerned with Young's shots, than the OU version of Ethan Wragge. Seemed like I was having Deja Vu all over again.

I have to think the game plan against Oklahoma was to leave the corner open if it was a post player in the corner. They may have been cheating off of the open guy in the corner to have an extra defender to stop Young's drives.

There may be an emphasis on keeping driving perimeter guys away from Shaq. He gets called for fouls when perimeter players penetrate. Shaq also (in my poor ability to judge basketball) seems to disappear offensively when he's guarded by a taller, more athletic post. Those guys block his shots a time or two and Shaq seems to adjust by forcing up off-balance 10' fall-away (not fade-away) shots. When those don't fall he starts shooting 3's. Does Shaq ever go straight at a shot blocker to get fouls on them? I don't recall seeing that.

As far as steals go, I'm confident McDuffie is part of the drop off. I'm also confident the massive change in the coaching staff is also part of that.

[im4wsu]

We are missing our top two ball hawks, Smith to transfer and McDuffie to injury. Because of that, most of our lineups lack significant pressure on passing angles. Ours guards play more conservatively rather than gambling for steals, and our bigs mostly lack the lateral quickness to jump the lanes. Zach and Samajae are the best on the team, but we don't have a single nationally ranked hawk (for reference, Jones leads with a 2% steal rate; the best in the country is over 6%). For internal comparison, the year we were #1 in defense we had 5 players with the 2.5% steal rate or higher (4 nationally ranked).

How does that translate to 3s? Our opponents aren't killing us with stepback or pull-up 3s. We are getting killed with the 2nd or 3rd pass. The reason Young could waltz into the heart of our defense on a screen and hit Manek consistently is that he had no fear of his pass getting intercepted, even with 2, 3, 4 bodies near by.

The ball moves faster than any player. It isn't possible to always have a guy within 5 ft of every possible shooter. Wichita State hasn't closed out well, but on second glance that isn't the issue. Against a defense with no pressure, a solid offense should be able to do what Oklahoma did to us: make space by screening, passing, and moving without the ball. Every pass, every rotation, the offense will get closer to a quality look. The offense moves as fast as the ball, the defense as fast as its defenders.

This lack of ball pressure is actually worse than our TO% would show. 15.8% of our opponent's possessions end in a TO, but only 6.1% end in a steal. Most of our TOs are charges, offensive fouls, and out of bound calls. We only get our hands on the ball in about 1 in 20 possessions. In other words, for every 1 time we threaten to pick off Young passing back to Manek we give up about 20 quality looks from beyond the arc. And while even the best teams don't do better than 1 in 10, they make the other 9 worse by changing passing angles or forcing passes to more guarded defenders.

Scheme-wise, the other thing hurting us is ball-screen defense. Our bigs aren't fast enough to switch (imagine Shaq trying to go 1v1 versus Young or another fast PG), and aren't doing a good job slowing the guard by hedging off the screen (Young was able to go full-speed towards the rim a few times while Landry/Brown/Reaves were behind the screener). This leaves our guards in a bad spot. If they go under the screen they give great looks to today's 3PT shooters, while going over gives an open route to the basket. Landry/Reaves/Conner don't do a great job swimming through a screen to stay in front of their man as well.

The pre-game hype on OU was that James wwas the "other guy" that could burn us from three. He was shooting 17-44 for 40.5% while putting up 5.5 per game. against WSU, he was 1-5. So far so good.

Manek, however, was shooting 12-36, 33% while lofting 4.5 per game. He put up 13 against us, making five (it seemed like 12) for 38.5%.

McGusty was shooting 7-25 for 28% while averaging 3.5 attempts per game. He was 3-6 for 50%.

We may have picked our poison and missed the guess.

[proshox]

My random thoughts on defense – some of this will align with comments above:

1) MM will help. Right now HCGM must choose between offense and defense. MM provides elite defense with above average offense.

2) ZB still appears to be a step or two slow from the knee injury

3) HCGM’s answer to a hot play maker has been to find new ways to increase pressure at the point of attack. I come from soccer, but sometimes the last thing you want to do against a Trae Young type is to get too close. The Ronaldo’s and Messi’s of the world want the primary defender in too close so they can beat the primary defender and slice the remaining defense apart as the inevitable “help the helper” scenario occurs. So why not have the primary defender backed off for a few possessions?

On the downside you would give up some open jumpers that may go in… Alternatively, the other four WSU defenders can stay singularly focused on stopping their assignments which would help reduce the probability a secondary option catches fire. The other defenders will also be in much better position to grab rebounds.

Two years ago when WSU lost to UNI in the MVC Championship game their point guard kept torching WSU’s vaunted defense until foul trouble caused CF to guard him. CF’s physical limitations forced him to give UNI’s point guard space which completely disrupted the UNI offense. As we see more talented players on a regular basis there will be more guys that are not impacted by high pressure and actually thrive off the opportunities the pressure presents. We need to have a plan b.

4) HCGM really wanted his players to take a charge against Trae… I have watched a lot of OU basketball this year and I have yet to see him get called for a charge… I am not sure HCGM should expect the impossible…

5) Shaq hasn’t giving full effort on a number of possessions and it hurts our overall defense

6) Watch game film when WSU plays zone… at the end of every possession you will see the WSU defenders trying to identify how they got so disorganized. If you are only going to zone 2 or 3 possessions a game, make sure it is one we can execute.

[Stickboy46]

My random thoughts on defense – some of this will align with comments above:

1) MM will help. Right now HCGM must choose between offense and defense. MM provides elite defense with above average offense.

2) ZB still appears to be a step or two slow from the knee injury

3) HCGM’s answer to a hot play maker has been to find new ways to increase pressure at the point of attack. I come from soccer, but sometimes the last thing you want to do against a Trae Young type is to get too close. The Ronaldo’s and Messi’s of the world want the primary defender in too close so they can beat the primary defender and slice the remaining defense apart as the inevitable “help the helper” scenario occurs. So why not have the primary defender backed off for a few possessions?

On the downside you would give up some open jumpers that may go in… Alternatively, the other four WSU defenders can stay singularly focused on stopping their assignments which would help reduce the probability a secondary option catches fire. The other defenders will also be in much better position to grab rebounds.

Two years ago when WSU lost to UNI in the MVC Championship game their point guard kept torching WSU’s vaunted defense until foul trouble caused CF to guard him. CF’s physical limitations forced him to give UNI’s point guard space which completely disrupted the UNI offense. As we see more talented players on a regular basis there will be more guys that are not impacted by high pressure and actually thrive off the opportunities the pressure presents. We need to have a plan b.

4) HCGM really wanted his players to take a charge against Trae… I have watched a lot of OU basketball this year and I have yet to see him get called for a charge… I am not sure HCGM should expect the impossible…

5) Shaq hasn’t giving full effort on a number of possessions and it hurts our overall defense

6) Watch game film when WSU plays zone… at the end of every possession you will see the WSU defenders trying to identify how they got so disorganized. If you are only going to zone 2 or 3 possessions a game, make sure it is one we can execute.

In response to the bolded. The scouting report on Trae Young was that he was deadly from just about anywhere 10 feet outside the arc (completely exaggerating, but you get the idea). You give him space anywhere on half court, he's going to bury a shot.

[proshox]

Ended up coming home for sick children - watched some game film - TY actually had some bad possessions in the second half with CF guarding him.... CF backed off him.

[WichitaStateGuy]

Just want to make sure everyone bookmarks this thread, because if it's anything like its title, it's liable to disappear at any second.

Zing.

[wsushox1]

Sincere question for those that are students of the game: do we have a scheme problem that leaves 3 point shooters open, or do we have an execution problem? Seems like you can't just run at a good shooter, you have to be there when he catches.

I'll take my answer off the air <burp>

I'll lean more towards a scheme problem.

I say that because, as im4wsu, pointed out...we clearly schemed to allow the corner three against OU. Additionally, when our big men pick up dumb fouls (shaq in a few games this year), they are unable to play as physical in the ball screen defense as they might otherwise be.

Additionally, I am not sure if 3G has asked our guards to back off the ball pressure, but it seems significantly worse this year than in the past. While being in the passing lane leads to a lot of turnovers, I'd say ball pressure on the player with the ball is what initially starts the sequence to a turnover. We aren't inducing a sense of panic in opposing guards. They are comfortable and content to hold the ball. I will say, though, that ball pressure is a direct reflection of how athletic your wing players are so it might be more of a personnel issue this year.

[SHOXJOCK]

We were at the game. After watching the replay here is my take on things. The referee's didn't do as bad as I though at the game. The old one still needs to retire. They played off RK and ZB a lot When MM gets back teams wont be able to do that. When the referee wont call moving screens send in CJ or someone in to go though the moving screen a couple of times. The two fouls will pay dividends during the rest of the game. And please show good sportsmanship and help the other team players up off the floor.

[Shockm]

Some of you who have the answers need to call in to the coaches show tonight and give your take and ask questions. I'm interested to hear Ggg's take after a couple of days to watch film and digest the problems.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

Apparently Coach reads SN, because he just hit 3 or 4 points from this thread. Apparently he is a OK coach. Let's give him a little more time before we run him off.

[ShockerFever]

Apparently Coach reads SN, because he just hit 3 or 4 points from this thread. Apparently he is a OK coach. Let's give him a little more time before we run him off.

I missed it. Did the answers suffice?

[SHOCKvalue]

Some of you who have the answers need to call in to the coaches show tonight and give your take and ask questions.

First sighting this season, I believe, of the sanctimonious “why are you people discussing things on a discussion forum” post.

Ten games in... not bad.