Questions moving forward

[ShockTalk]

I think we're all on the same wave length here shocker2 and SB Shock. We should dominate a "crappy" conference if we're to have the type of team necessary to go to post season.

However, it is the 14th ranked conference!!

We can win a bottom-feeder conference, even dominate it, but if we screw up and lose the MVC tourney, you may not get an invite unless you've taken care of business in OOC. One is kind of a product of the other. You don't dominate a bad conference, you probably don't do well OOC and vice versa. But I also feel that if you can dominate your conference, you shouldn't have to always use your top 3 pitchers in it. That could jeopardize your success against better teams OOC and possibly keep you out of post season play if you lose the MVC tourney and all your resume says is that you won a lowly conference.

[Veritas]

I like the success of WSU volleyball, but I find no comfort in knowing that volleyball is "the next big Shocker sport" in which to look forward.

I do hope we see a pretty good detailed article from Suellentrop on Gene's action plan.

Does Sully usually write a postseason article on "Gene's action plan"? Maybe he does but I don't remember such articles.

Perhaps I forgot a WSU sport but I can't think of any Shocker sport which people want to watch and which occurs before volleyball? Cross country? That's great to watch. :roll: What sport am I forgetting? If men's basketball was the next "popular" sport to occur on the schedule, I would be promoting it; however, it isn't next. I did not intend my initial post to be a dig at football but simply a statement of fact.

As for the MLB draft, we may not know until classes start in the fall which players signed and which are returning; I can think of more productive ways of spending my summer than worrying about the draft. (The draft I had to worry about when I was 18 was a lot more serious than the MLB draft; as my best high school friend used to say, the ads said "Find yourself in the Army" (and then in Vietnam) and this was his biggest fear.)

As for watching summer "practice sessions" for men's basketball, I will admit to some curiosity. However I hope none of us takes such interest to the "Cold level." ;-)

Spangler, I was having a football flashback. It's always a long stretch during the WSU athletic summer doldrums.

[SB Shock]

But I also feel that if you can dominate your conference, you shouldn't have to always use your top 3 pitchers in it.

With the schedule changed in colllege baseball, WSU should be able to schedule their best opponents such that their weekend starters are pitching for them in the games that mean the most. Weekend starters started 19 out 35 non-conference games this year.

Also, I would argue that past success for WSU has been because they gave underclassmen the chances to pitch mid-week against good opponents. By post-season time they were well seasoned. The problem with today program is WSU doesn't have a bullpen that could come in and close the door when one of the younger guys got in trouble.

[Dan]

WSU is a good enough program that it should be able to get into the tournament every year with or without the Valley title. Calling it a one bid conference means you're not good enough to win non-conference games against top tier opponents. If that is the case, then we're no better than the rest of the Valley teams.

[ISASO]

The Valley must be an afterthought if WSU is to remain a viable program capable of getting to Omaha. An afterthought, as in, we should win it hands down just as we did during the stretch of 14-straight titles.

The program has to be built around hosting a Regional and a Super Regional, so you have to shoot for being one of the 8 National Seeds. That's why I was so PO's after we lost at LBSU and Arizona. Our opportunity disappeared that early this season.

There is no margin for error. Play a good schedule and win a lot.

Trouble with saving your best pitchers for mid-week games is that once quality opponents hear of that they won't schedule WSU anymore because they have important conference games to play on the weekends.

[Shirley Schmidt]

If that is the case, then we're no better than the rest of the Valley teams.

They proved that this year.

[WSUwatcher]

Yep...

Pogo, we've been around this block too many times. I absolutely agree that winning the Valley should not outrank winning midweek games against the quality opponents WSU manages to play, but Gene seems to have his mind made up.

It's frustrating, because most years, the only marquee wins WSU can hope for are against non-league opponents. No one in the Valley is good enough that beating them impresses anybody. If MoState or Creighton can get back to that level (or reaching waaaay back, Indiana State), or if Illinois State can get there and stay there, great. But until Valley opponents start giving WSU a chance to get RPI top-50 wins -- or even top 100, in most cases -- the Shocks need to take mid-week non-league games against "name" opponents more seriously. That means recruiting and building a genuine four or five man starting rotation, developing it, and using it as a true rotation just as they did when the WSU program was far more successful than it is now.

It's obvious what Gene is thinking: winning the Valley, as mediocre as it now is, may not be that big a plus, but losing it is a big minus to the tournament selectors. And there's something to that. But losing games 14-0 and 19-0, or 7-1 and 8-1 back to back against a mediocre ORU team, is a big minus, too -- too big to overcome this year, in fact. Besides, if WSU can develop a credible fourth (or fifth) rotation starter, such a guy or guys shouldn't be overmatched against Valley teams or their #3 starters, so there's no reason that taking mid-week games seriously should in any way kill WSU’s ability to win league games, too. A quality program up to the great Shocker pitching tradition should be able to do both.

I've never understood why Gene and Brent decided somewhere along the line that playing well in mid-week games necessarily precludes playing well on the weekends. It didn't used to work that way; why now? The real vexing question in my mind is why the coaches apparently no longer believe they can have a program capable of doing both well.

By the way, while I'm agreeing with people, let me also chime in to support Doc's idea of scheduling up. I like Gene's philosophy of being willing to play anyone who will return the games. I believe it's the right approach for everyone, even the fat cats of college baseball, and WSU has certainly earned such treatment.

But I also remember a time, back when WSU was just starting to build, when the Shocks couldn't operate that way. If I remember correctly, it was the record-setting 1982 Shocker team that early in the season played (and of course lost) a couple of games in Austin against Texas, where WSU has never won. Those games weren't ever going to be returned; Cliff Gustafson was more full of Longhorn hubris and parochialism that Garrido is. But it didn't matter, because WSU got its chance a few months later in Omaha (where the Shocks are unbeaten against the Bevo boys).

It may be galling to have to return to that approach, but if Gene and his guys are more concerned about the program than pride, as one would hope such reportedly intense competitors are, that would certainly be a way to get more high profile games and chances to boost their RPI. Just go on the road for a few such games every year and don't worry about return games in Wichita. Just go, and then play to win. Get weekend sets if possible, but skip the "midweek" garbage if the games happen to be on a Tuesday or Wednesday; make sure the Shocker pitching rotation is set up to reflect the importance of such opportunities, even if it means using a #4 starter against a Valley opponent. (Of course, as I noted above, that's easier to do while using the true rotation approach WSU took when they had a better program. Maybe if a guy like Kelley or Cooper was used to working every fifth day instead of once a week, he wouldn't be so likely to get lit up when that's what the rotation reqiuired, unlike what we saw from Kelley against Arizona or Cooper in the MVC championship game).

[Ta town]

-Don't play Big 12 teams midweek. Get 3 game series with them before conf season starts.

-Load up on high RPI teams and I mean load up during pre conference season.

-During MVC play just schedule absolute duds for midweek and always at home.

Just my two cents, seeing how WSU plays in a crappy conference instead of a Great conference just REVERSE they way the big boys do it. UNC for example racked up a lot of thier wins in pre conf play, they didn't leave home and played a bunch of crap teams minus one or two.

WSU should load up on the RPI games during pre conf play. Then rack up the wins via mediorce comp in valley and crappy comp in mid week at home games. That way they have the possiblility of running off 10-12 in a row. Or at least a ton of 4-1 weeks.

All this playing mid week games against big 12 is a crap shoot. Get KU and Kstate for 3 early in the year.


I don't know if any of that would actually help just how I would like to see it.

[ABC]

Food for thought:

During the five seasons between the Shocks' 82 and 88 College World Series, the Shocks were 5-4 in Regional play, missing NCAA play in 84 and 86.

82 NCAA championship game

83 1-2 in regional at Stillwater.

84 No NCAA

85 3-2, making Regional championship in Stillwater

86 No NCAA

87 1-2 at Regional in Paloa Alto, eliminated by Oral Roberts

88 - CWS final four

Food for thought.

I have concerns about our current situation and agree 100% with Doc's post.

But we are spoiled by a run from 88 - 96 that few college athletic programs ever see over nine seasons.

[DUShock]

ABC I agree with being spoiled, heck we went to Omaha every year I was an undergrad but the "slippage" of the past several seasons is a concern.

Go Shocks!

[Shocker85]

Re: Yep...

By the way, while I'm agreeing with people, let me also chime in to support Doc's idea of scheduling up. I like Gene's philosophy of being willing to play anyone who will return the games. I believe it's the right approach for everyone, even the fat cats of college baseball, and WSU has certainly earned such treatment.

True, and I agree. However, I believe there are at least three factors that are going to prevent dramatic schedule improvement from happening.

1) Gene says one thing in public and goes about his real business in a totally different way. He spouts the "home and home" thing, but there are so many conditions on how he will schedule that it never happens. I've believed this for a while, and his discussion of scheduling a late-season make-up game (with KSU, I think) and his double-speak about it being "not right" for the schedule more or less confirmed it.

2) BCS bias is as bad or worse in baseball than basketball. Witness OU's and Arkansas' claim that playing WSU doesn't help them. The possible out here is that the pool of good teams in baseball is deeper than in basketball and there are a number of solid Top 50 programs outside the BCS leagues. WSU has scheduled some of those only to have them have poor seasons when the Shox play them. The RPI formula for baseball doesn't help either. power conference teams have a decided advantage due to their disproportionatly loaded home schedules.

3) The Big Boys of College Baseball don't play OOC road games. Gene can spew home-and-home, but there are a number of baseball powers that refuse to play away from home OOC. Period. Gene will never agree to a buy-out type series just to play LSU, Texas, etc.

I completely agree with the notion of front loading the schedule OOC before league play starts. A little risky due to weather, but the Shox need to be able to play the best people and use the best pitchers when they play good RPI teams. Weekends before league play and spring break are the best options.

--'85.

[KC Shox]

Re: Yep...

By the way, while I'm agreeing with people, let me also chime in to support Doc's idea of scheduling up. I like Gene's philosophy of being willing to play anyone who will return the games. I believe it's the right approach for everyone, even the fat cats of college baseball, and WSU has certainly earned such treatment.

True, and I agree. However, I believe there are at least three factors that are going to prevent dramatic schedule improvement from happening.

1) Gene says one thing in public and goes about his real business in a totally different way. He spouts the "home and home" thing, but there are so many conditions on how he will schedule that it never happens. I've believed this for a while, and his discussion of scheduling a late-season make-up game (with KSU, I think) and his double-speak about it being "not right" for the schedule more or less confirmed it.

2) BCS bias is as bad or worse in baseball than basketball. Witness OU's and Arkansas' claim that playing WSU doesn't help them. The possible out here is that the pool of good teams in baseball is deeper than in basketball and there are a number of solid Top 50 programs outside the BCS leagues. WSU has scheduled some of those only to have them have poor seasons when the Shox play them. The RPI formula for baseball doesn't help either. power conference teams have a decided advantage due to their disproportionatly loaded home schedules.

3) The Big Boys of College Baseball don't play OOC road games. Gene can spew home-and-home, but there are a number of baseball powers that refuse to play away from home OOC. Period. Gene will never agree to a buy-out type series just to play LSU, Texas, etc.

I completely agree with the notion of front loading the schedule OOC before league play starts. A little risky due to weather, but the Shox need to be able to play the best people and use the best pitchers when they play good RPI teams. Weekends before league play and spring break are the best options.

--'85.

I totally agree. The MVC does nothing for our RPI but to bring it down. We need to load up on the OOC schedule to make up for this deficiency. But we need to emulate Long Beach State's template of scheduling. Granted, if is far easier for them due to their geographic location, but they schedule tough every year. Look at their non-con games this year;

Pepperdine
Oregon
Zona
UCLA
UNLV
Oregon State
Washington
Wichita State
Stanford
USC
Hawaii
San Diego St.

They were down this year, but they usually make the tourney because they play a tough schedule which boosts their RPI. It is clear you can hover around .500 all year, but if the committee sees you scheduled tough and your RPI shows this, they will give you a bid

[shox1989]

Re: Yep...

By the way, while I'm agreeing with people, let me also chime in to support Doc's idea of scheduling up. I like Gene's philosophy of being willing to play anyone who will return the games. I believe it's the right approach for everyone, even the fat cats of college baseball, and WSU has certainly earned such treatment.

True, and I agree. However, I believe there are at least three factors that are going to prevent dramatic schedule improvement from happening.

1) Gene says one thing in public and goes about his real business in a totally different way. He spouts the "home and home" thing, but there are so many conditions on how he will schedule that it never happens. I've believed this for a while, and his discussion of scheduling a late-season make-up game (with KSU, I think) and his double-speak about it being "not right" for the schedule more or less confirmed it.

2) BCS bias is as bad or worse in baseball than basketball. Witness OU's and Arkansas' claim that playing WSU doesn't help them. The possible out here is that the pool of good teams in baseball is deeper than in basketball and there are a number of solid Top 50 programs outside the BCS leagues. WSU has scheduled some of those only to have them have poor seasons when the Shox play them. The RPI formula for baseball doesn't help either. power conference teams have a decided advantage due to their disproportionatly loaded home schedules.

3) The Big Boys of College Baseball don't play OOC road games. Gene can spew home-and-home, but there are a number of baseball powers that refuse to play away from home OOC. Period. Gene will never agree to a buy-out type series just to play LSU, Texas, etc.

I completely agree with the notion of front loading the schedule OOC before league play starts. A little risky due to weather, but the Shox need to be able to play the best people and use the best pitchers when they play good RPI teams. Weekends before league play and spring break are the best options.

--'85.

I totally agree. The MVC does nothing for our RPI but to bring it down. We need to load up on the OOC schedule to make up for this deficiency. But we need to emulate Long Beach State's template of scheduling. Granted, if is far easier for them due to their geographic location, but they schedule tough every year. Look at their non-con games this year;

Pepperdine
Oregon
Zona
UCLA
UNLV
Oregon State
Washington
Wichita State
Stanford
USC
Hawaii
San Diego St.

They were down this year, but they usually make the tourney because they play a tough schedule which boosts their RPI. It is clear you can hover around .500 all year, but if the committee sees you scheduled tough and your RPI shows this, they will give you a bid

Remember they are also in the Big West Conference, which is usually a top 5 to 7 conference each year.

They don't get dragged down by the Valley. If we hover around .500, it won't matter how strong our non-con is, we still won't make it because the Valley (as it stands now) will drag us down.

[ShockerFever]

Home field advantage IMO isn't as great an advantage as it is in basketball, especially EARLY in the year. So the easy solution would be to schedule up to whatever necessary EARLY in the year. In February and March so many people are focused in on basketball and the weather can be subpar for home environments. Therefore, create as much "neutrality" as possible and travel to the big boys early. Get the weekend series at no matter what cost. It's the only solution at this point.

Of course I say this and then I look at our road record this year and cringe.. :roll:

[Shocker85]

Of course I say this and then I look at our road record this year and cringe.

Year	W	L	  Home %	  W	L	Road %
2010	28	 7	0.800		11	12	0.478
2009	25	15	0.625		4 	10	0.286
2008	33	 6	0.846		14	11	0.560
2007	30	13	0.698		20	 8	0.714
2006	28	 7	0.800		15	14	0.517
2005	29	11	0.725		16	10	0.615
2004	29	 4	0.879		16	11	0.593
2003	25	 9	0.735		22	16	0.579
2002	30	 9	0.769		15	 8	0.652
2001	23	 9	0.719		12	10	0.545
Cum	280	90	0.757	  145   110     0.569