Desperate Augie

[martymoose]

That's not true at all. Boyce pitched a great game in the Super Regional against Florida State. I can't remember off hand how he did in the CWS. His senior year he came back and was the same pitcher he'd always been (a pretty good college pitcher).

Ok, so maybe the guy didn't know as much as he lead us to believe.

[CharlieHog]

While tailgating before the OU game in Norman last Friday, we had an Arkansas fan come over and hang out with us for awhile. He is a booster at Arkansas and said he has a skybox and seemed to be very knowledgeable when talking baseball. Someone in my group mentioned pitcher abuse. He said after that game Gene was quoted in their paper as saying Boyce got abused and it was a shame...or something to that effect.

I never followed what happened after that, but this guy said Boyce was so messed up he wasn't able to pitch at all in the Super Regional. When he came in to pitch in the CWS he plunked something like 7 hitters and never pitched again after that. If all that's true, that's exactly why it should be considered abuse, it's just too bad some coaches can't see that.

That's not true at all. Boyce pitched a great game in the Super Regional against Florida State. I can't remember off hand how he did in the CWS. His senior year he came back and was the same pitcher he'd always been (a pretty good college pitcher).

Charlie, I'm not surprised you can't remember how he did in the CWS. I would want to forget it too. He went 5 innings, gave up 5 runs on 7 hits, had 2 wild pitches, and hit 3 batters.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...ps_records.pdf

I was even there. I only remember us hitting like .150 or something horrible like that.

[ShockCity]

[quote="martymoose"]

That's not true at all. Boyce pitched a great game in the Super Regional against Florida State. I can't remember off hand how he did in the CWS. His senior year he came back and was the same pitcher he'd always been (a pretty good college pitcher).

Ok, so maybe the guy didn't know as much as he lead us to believe.

He was probably talking about the CWS game that I mentioned above.

[ShockCity]

While tailgating before the OU game in Norman last Friday, we had an Arkansas fan come over and hang out with us for awhile. He is a booster at Arkansas and said he has a skybox and seemed to be very knowledgeable when talking baseball. Someone in my group mentioned pitcher abuse. He said after that game Gene was quoted in their paper as saying Boyce got abused and it was a shame...or something to that effect.

I never followed what happened after that, but this guy said Boyce was so messed up he wasn't able to pitch at all in the Super Regional. When he came in to pitch in the CWS he plunked something like 7 hitters and never pitched again after that. If all that's true, that's exactly why it should be considered abuse, it's just too bad some coaches can't see that.

That's not true at all. Boyce pitched a great game in the Super Regional against Florida State. I can't remember off hand how he did in the CWS. His senior year he came back and was the same pitcher he'd always been (a pretty good college pitcher).

Charlie, I'm not surprised you can't remember how he did in the CWS. I would want to forget it too. He went 5 innings, gave up 5 runs on 7 hits, had 2 wild pitches, and hit 3 batters.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...ps_records.pdf

I was even there. I only remember us hitting like .150 or something horrible like that.

At least you guys made it that far. Hopefully us Shocker fans will get that opportunity again some century.

[CalKidinMO]

I don't know what disgusts me more, a coach overusing a pitcher, or a holier than though fan complaining about it.

I can tell you that in 2004 Mike and Kris went up to Gene and Brent on the last dat and were both told "Thanks but no way".

There was never an occasion that I would complain as abouse or overuse. Because of that I haved tried real hard with some local players to look at the program. Brent has tried to get a couple and K'd, if there was ever a thought of something wrong I would not put my name behind the program in support.

Enough said

[t7017s]

I don't know what disgusts me more, a coach overusing a pitcher, or a holier than though fan complaining about it.

I can tell you that in 2004 Mike and Kris went up to Gene and Brent on the last dat and were both told "Thanks but no way".

There was never an occasion that I would complain as abouse or overuse. Because of that I haved tried real hard with some local players to look at the program. Brent has tried to get a couple and K'd, if there was ever a thought of something wrong I would not put my name behind the program in support.

Enough said

Can someone translate this for me?

[shocks771]

I'll take a shot.

In the 2004 Regional at Arkansas both Mike Pelfrey and Kris Johnson went up to Gene and Brent before the final game of the regional and said that they would both be willing to pitch if needed. They were told "thanks but no way" by the coaches.

There was never an occasion during Kris's career that I witnessed any pitcher abuse or overuse. Because of that I have tried real hard to get some other local players in Missouri to committ to Wichita State. Brent has tried to get a couple without any luck. If there were any issues with abuse or overuse there is no way that I would endourse the WSU program and it is because of the way that the coaches handle their players that I speak highly of the WSU program to possible recruits.

[t7017s]

I'll take a shot.

In the 2004 Regional at Arkansas both Mike Pelfrey and Kris Johnson went up to Gene and Brent before the final game of the regional and said that they would both be willing to pitch if needed. They were told "thanks but no way" by the coaches.

There was never an occasion during Kris's career that I witnessed any pitcher abuse or overuse. Because of that I have tried real hard to get some other local players in Missouri to committ to Wichita State. Brent has tried to get a couple without any luck. If there were any issues with abuse or overuse there is no way that I would endourse the WSU program and it is because of the way that the coaches handle their players that I speak highly of the WSU program to possible recruits.

Thanks. That's more or less what I thought he was getting at but wasn't exactly sure.

[martymoose]

I'll take a shot.

In the 2004 Regional at Arkansas both Mike Pelfrey and Kris Johnson went up to Gene and Brent before the final game of the regional and said that they would both be willing to pitch if needed. They were told "thanks but no way" by the coaches.

There was never an occasion during Kris's career that I witnessed any pitcher abuse or overuse. Because of that I have tried real hard to get some other local players in Missouri to committ to Wichita State. Brent has tried to get a couple without any luck. If there were any issues with abuse or overuse there is no way that I would endourse the WSU program and it is because of the way that the coaches handle their players that I speak highly of the WSU program to possible recruits.

Did you use a google translator?

[CalKidinMO]

Sorry guys looked good when I hit the SUBMIT button.

[WSUwatcher]

More

The word is starting to spread to unlikely places, as this link shows:

http://blog.al.com/birmingham-news-sports/2009/06/hot_corner_college_pitchers_we.html

The Birmingham News?

Anyway, back to Charlie's comment about how this stuff happens all the time, though -- well, of course it does; we all see it. And that's exactly the problem. Look at Boyd Nation's site and you can see literally hundreds of listings every year on his "Pitch Count Watch" (with Oral Roberts being one of the worst offenders, by the way, whereas Dave Van Horn is generally not, despite the Bionic Boyce incident).

The stat guys have done lots of research on this in recent years, and none of it supports allowing excessively high pitch counts for young pitchers. The general rule of thumb that has emerged is that 120 pitches in an outing is enough; more creates a risk, which is why Boyd's "watch" uses that as the qualifying standard. The less used to heavy workloads a pitcher is (Austin Wood, for example, who's now thrown 75 innings in 35 games all season, which makes 13 innings and 169 pitches in a night stand out quite a bit), the greater the risk.

As a result, pro teams associated with major league organizations, who view their pitchers as investments, don't try this stuff, and their scouting directors' eyebrows shoot up when they read about something like the Texas-BC game. But lots of college coaches do it (and high school and youth coaches, too, unless they're prohibited by inning limitation rules, which are there precisely because the administrators know too many coaches can't be trusted not to do it -- of course, such rules don't exist in the college game). It doesn't make it right or sensible; it just means they want to win, and they convince themselves that riding their best horses is the way to do so.

In the process, some are willing to let highly competitive young pitchers put themselves at risk. That's usually what the coaches say, too -- and Van Horn was one of the offenders here in the Boyce case -- "hey, he wanted the ball." They act as if the responsibility belongs to the player. That was the point our poster CalKid was making about Stephenson and Kemnitz: to their credit, Gene and Brent are willing to stand up, be coaches, and do the right thing even if it doesn't maximize their chances of winning a given game.

And really, that's the proper answer to the other guys (whose ranks include such luminaries as winning percentage leader Cliff Gustafson and wins leader Garrido -- both from Texas, by the way), too: Grow up, pal. Be the adult -- that's your damn job. How many of these coaches would let their own children do whatever they want just because they want to do it? Do you think they've never told their own kids, No, that isn't good for you? Yet in a situation where their job includes taking care of their players and thinking of their futures and not just the moment, they wimp out with some lame disclaimer of responsibility and hope that all will be forgotten in the afterglow of victory.

It's a crock, and the fact that lots of guys do it doesn't mean there's any less... stuff, shall we say, in the crock.

[CharlieHog]

http://deadspin.com/5277374/austin-wood-and-the-pitch+count-question

[ShockTalk]

Excellent articles which speak to the issue of what constitutes a coach with a great record vs a coach who looks out for welfare of the young men he is intrusted with (and in our case, also happens to have a great record).

Unfortunately, this is an old problem which probably will not change without intervening from outside forces (NCAA). Perhaps if MLB denounced coaches who do this (by name), that would also help.

[ShockCity]

Soggy just needs to take a long walk off a short pier...

[WSUwatcher]

Etc.

And so the saga continues, as Texas gets by TCU to go to Omaha. Too bad.

Surprise, surprise -- Texas went first to Austin Wood when their freshman starter ran into late-inning problems, and surprise, surprise: Wood had nothing. No fastball, one hard hit ball after another. He couldn't finish the job, and if he had pitched all season the way he did tonight, he'd be deep in the pen right now instead of their prize closer.

Still, Augie's desperation lived on, as he then turned to his best starter, Chance Ruffin, who unnecessarily threw a complete game of almost 130 pitches in a 10-4 walk in the park just two nights earlier, to finish up in the ninth. How can anyone not wearing burnt orange fail to root against a guy like that? And for that matter, how can even UT fans who haven't drunk the orange Kool-aid -- or their AD DeLoss Dodds -- not wonder what's up with this stuff?

By the way, I believe Ruffin's dad is Bruce Ruffin, a Texas pitcher from the Gustafson era who went on to the majors. Gus was another pitcher abuser, possibly worse than Garrido, so Ruffin may have been indoctrinated accordingly -- but I can't help wondering if, assuming he's familiar with the recent analyses showing the dangers of high pitch counts and overuse -- he might be a little dubious himself about Augie's playing fast and loose with his son's future.