Shocks at ORU (Moved to Wednesday)

[strongisbeautiful17]

A lot of recruiting comes from Perfect Game and other showcases that these families have paid money to to get their son's name on the board...paying this kind of money doesn't always mean your kid is the best it just means your parents have spent the money. I agree with Cdizzle and SHOCKvalue. What happened with our #2 Recruiting class in the country?....they looked good on paper and Perfect Game.

[SHOCKvalue]

Okay then. Perceived athletic ability and past performance is less an indicator of future results than just having a good heart, a willingness to learn, and coach-ability.

Gosh, I'm almost sure that in the MBB forum we talk up the top 100 accolades that roughly half of our roster enjoyed coming out of HS, as a predictor of value moving forward (see: FVV, ZB, MM, CF, EH, LS, PA, plus several incoming recruits) but whatevs...

So basically, what we're hoping for here is a baseball team full of Ron Baker CBB analogs, then? I guess that's a bit of a problem since baseball requires three to four times the players (including those on their field, pitching staffs, DH's, etc.), and most consider what RB did to be a once in a lifetime thing. But hey, I'm always down for powerball odds if there is a hint of huge return.

[shockfan89_]

I have not seen any increase in talent with HCTB's highly rated recruiting classes. I have seen larger recruiting classes, a higher turnover of players, and bigger players, but the talent seems to have dropped off in the past few years.

I think it's way too early to give up on this team but my hopes of an at-large bid are looking pretty far removed after the past two games. Let's hope we can get 2 out of 3 this weekend and go from there.

[ShockTalk]

What Butler does in the Valley has always been my first level barometer to his success. Third place in the Valley should be a minimum for WSU and that only once out of maybe 4-5 years. Butler has already achieved that during the "trial" 2 years so, no reason to not start improving/winning the Valley or no less than 2nd place and getting an at-large bid on a regular basis.

This was my first test for Gene as to whether he was getting the job done, he wasn't and he had his experience and name to help him. By the way, back-dooring an auto bid is not success, it's luck and good timing. Having to do that in the Valley meant you had a down year.

I'm not asking Butler to compete at the highest level, I'm asking Butler to have success at what I would consider the lowest level. I'm asking that he get and coach up players that can win the Valley and/or get an at-large bid. Once he, or any coach, can do that, then I'll look at him earning his pay at the next level. If he cannot do the minimum, his rope should be very short.

Personally, I do think his strength has, and will be, recruiting. However, I have also felt that his choice for an assistant was weak. It was a "comfortable", not a strong choice. Given Butler's own strength, he needed a really strong assistant. I think Gene made the same mistake in his latter years.

[shockfan89_]

I agree with the majority of what ShockTalk said. I don't want to rehash everything but I wanted to take a closer look at his comment that Gene wasn't getting it done.

In Gene's last 7 years (HCTB has a 7 year contract), we finished 1st - 3 times, 2nd - 2 times, and 3rd - 2 times. This included 4 regional appearances and 2 super regionals. I think it is true to say WSU had fallen off but we were still very competitive in the MVC.

Since Gene we have a 4th place finish and an under .500 tie for 3rd (which was really 4th). At this point I would just like to get back to when Gene wasn't getting the job done... I think there were a lot of issues but I also think many people were expecting the success of the 80s and 90s to continue and the reality is with the creation of recruiting services and all players stats posted on the internet for all to see, WSU was no longer able to find as many of those "diamonds in the rough" that we used to build teams around. Instead of having 6 or 7 we were getting 1 or 2. That is just the new reality regardless of who the coach is.

[ShockTalk]

I agree with the majority of what ShockTalk said. I don't want to rehash everything but I wanted to take a closer look at his comment that Gene wasn't getting it done.

In Gene's last 7 years (HCTB has a 7 year contract), we finished 1st - 3 times, 2nd - 2 times, and 3rd - 2 times. This included 4 regional appearances and 2 super regionals. I think it is true to say WSU had fallen off but we were still very competitive in the MVC.

Since Gene we have a 4th place finish and an under .500 tie for 3rd (which was really 4th). At this point I would just like to get back to when Gene wasn't getting the job done... I think there were a lot of issues but I also think many people were expecting the success of the 80s and 90s to continue and the reality is with the creation of recruiting services and all players stats posted on the internet for all to see, WSU was no longer able to find as many of those "diamonds in the rough" that we used to build teams around. Instead of having 6 or 7 we were getting 1 or 2. That is just the new reality regardless of who the coach is.

Thank you for your kind response. Please take my following remarks as such.

First, Butler having a 7 year contract is no reason to use Gene's last seven years for any comparison. We do not know what Butler's record will be (well, maybe we do) in 7 years. He also does not have Gene's legendary career to help him recruit. Gene's last years were coming from a higher point while Butler's WSU career was starting from WSU's lowest point when competing for good recruits was/is at its highest. As such, we all probably gave him a pass for the first and probably second year. This is no more than giving Gene a pass here and there for a "down" year.

Interesting that you used Gene's last 7 years for that Valley standing comparison as it was about the same as his previous 6 years (2-1st, 3- 2nd, and 1-3rd). Again, we are talking Valley performance only. Something I believe we can all agree on that WSU should dominate more than we were. It has nothing to do with other conferences. What it has to do with is Gene's national status as a highly successful coach, the salary he was getting, the budget he had for his staff, the WSU fan support, not having a weather disadvantage with other Valley teams, the places our teams traveled to (many Hawaii trips for example) and using all this to not only compete with other Valley programs for better recruits, but for out performing each and every one in the Valley most years. Not 5-1st, 5-2nd, and 3-3rd over 13 years. More importantly, not 1-1st, 2-2nd, and 2-3rds over the last 5 years.

Both Gene and Todd Butler had/have hefty salaries. I expect certain minimums for those salaries. IMO, Gene didn't, as I have described above, and Butler is now in his time where he will be graded just like Gene was. Coach Butler has not gotten off to a promising start.

[shockfan89_]

I used Gene's last 7 years just as a gauge since HCTB has a 7 year contract and most people like to comment about the decline over the past decade (which would be 2 under HCTB and the previous 7 or 8). I almost used Gene's last 10 years but that added a few more 1st place finish but excluded some of the 2nds and 3rds you mentioned in the past 13. Not scientific at all, just hard to know where to draw the line.

My point was that while Shocker Baseball has probably been in decline the past 10-15 years, it is a decline from a streak of success that is one of the best ever streaks in D1 college sports. I think in this modern age of sports 5 - 1st, 5 - 2nd, and 3 - 3rd is probably about as good as things will get. Let's just say I would love for our next 13 years to look like that.

Gene's contract got out of control as do most successful coaches. I would even argue (with many wanting to smack me) that we have another coach who's contract has grown out of control. I'm not saying both of them didn't earn it in their great years, but why not pay coaches base salaries on what you expect of them and then include very nice incentives for post-season? Anyway, great discussion! Thanks for your POV!

[ShockTalk]

I know of a WSU coach who's contract has grown out of control and I don't believe it's who you are referencing. I can also think of another women's WSU coach who is not getting enough, comparatively speaking. We have another coach (yes, he's being discussed here) that may have too sweet a deal, but that's yet to be determined. All three of these should be more concerning than who is not being mentioned in your post. :)

Yes, nothing scientific about where to draw the line, I just figured the last 5 years was not only the current period, but a long enough time to see where things were going. The one 1st place finish was a tie for first and the season was not an at-large worthy year (as were none of the others). Both NCAA berths were back-door entries which we were quickly dispatched from. The second of those, Gene's last year, our regular season record was not any better than the year before. So, over 5 years, no clear regular Valley title, no at-large worthy teams, 0-4 NCAAs, and nothing to really hang one's hat that anything was changing. No school in baseball would continue to pay that kind of money for those results.

As far as the "modern age of sports 5 - 1st, 5 - 2nd, and 3 - 3rd is probably about as good as things will get", this is the Valley we're talking about and I will respectfully disagree. I still hold out hope that we can dominate the Valley better than that and regularly have at-large worthy teams. If not, we need to review just how much money is spent on baseball as I believe a better or equal product is being put out there for a lot less money.

[KC Shox]

Well, in summary, all the cache the baseball Shox gained in the 80s, 90s through mid 2000s has all but evaporated. That train has up and left the station.

We are experiencing a new era of college baseball folks. When once dormant programs like Oregon State, Oregon, TCU, Virginia, and Louisville (off the top of my head), can come out of no where and compete for national championships and remain relevant, just confirms my suspicion that power conference money and the university focusing more on baseball dilutes the talent pool.

We are doing a good job of trying to keep up with Joneses in terms of facilities and how well we pay our staff, but at the end of the day, we simply can't compete in all aspects of what a power conference can offer. 22 of the top 30 in the collegiate baseball polls are from power conferences. The other 7 programs who do not belong to a power conference however reside in TX, LA, CA and FL. Give credit to Missouri State for being the lone non power conference program who is doing well.

[ShockTalk]

Well, in summary, all the cache the baseball Shox gained in the 80s, 90s through mid 2000s has all but evaporated. That train has up and left the station.

We are experiencing a new era of college baseball folks. When once dormant programs like Oregon State, Oregon, TCU, Virginia, and Louisville (off the top of my head), can come out of no where and compete for national championships and remain relevant, just confirms my suspicion that power conference money and the university focusing more on baseball dilutes the talent pool.

We are doing a good job of trying to keep up with Joneses in terms of facilities and how well we pay our staff, but at the end of the day, we simply can't compete in all aspects of what a power conference can offer. 22 of the top 30 in the collegiate baseball polls are from power conferences. The other 7 programs who do not belong to a power conference however reside in TX, LA, CA and FL. Give credit to Missouri State for being the lone non power conference program who is doing well.

While I'm not disagreeing with your statements, you are kind of getting the cart ahead of the horse. I really don't care what the power conferences are doing. That will be dealt with, or not, when the time comes to deal with it.

First and foremost is dealing with our standing within the Valley. The question: Is there any reasons why WSU cannot be the overall number 1 team in the Valley? That does not mean 1st place every year or winning the Valley tourney every year. It does mean: Can we again become the team to beat year in, year out within the Valley and have at-large level teams on occasions where we do not win the Valley tourney? Why is this not a viable objective that can be reached?

[Cdizzle]

Why is this not a viable objective that can be reached?

Because we recruit based on height and not based on baseball talent?