What will it take?

[1979Shocker]

Disagree. I don't understand why so many Gene haters refuse to acknowledge that perhaps there were other issues that might have made it harder to win today. The Kansas recruiting restriction seems like a valid concern and a contributing factor.

The recruiting restriction could have been one factor, but I think the main factor was that the big schools decided to get more involved in baseball and recruits that WSU normally got in the past are now going to those schools.

[Ricardo del Rio]

The BC incident happened in April of 1999. Schaus wasn't hired until June of 1999, so there probably was no way that he could have made the call to pull the trigger on that. President Beggs arrived in January of 1999, so he was here...but again, I am not sure a move could have been made at that time. You think firing Gene now has been controversial? This has been tame compared to doing that 15 years ago. Could it have been justified? Absolutely. That said, all hell would have broken loose.

You are so correcto. Coach Stephenson was bullet proof then.

[Veritas]

@1972Shocker: post above would seem to make that concern inconclusive at best (only 8 years of rosters shown on goshockers.com), but the 3 best years had as many or more Kansas players than the other worse years.

I know populations of other states have an affect being able to find enough players within your own state. However, 30 of 33 players on Illinois St roster are from Illinois; IN St has 14 home-grown players, and MSU has 18 from Missouri (8 from SW Missouri and 5 from the KCMO area). IN St also has 3 KS players, 2 with stats, pitchers with a combined 43 games, 76 innings, and a 2.50 ERA. MSU has 4 KS players, 2 pitchers appeared to be injured this season (both very effective last year) and 2 position players, both starters and one with the 2nd best batting average on the team. It would appear other Valley schools found enough KS kids available who could helped them.

Basically, I don't think this "restriction" had hurt Gene, at least from Valley performance at minimum.

Question. Do you think, had Gene not been let go, he would have self reported the apparel violations? If yes, would this, given all the other "problems" been enough to let Gene go? If he didn't self report, but the ADs office found later in the year, would that have been enough?

But.... to your point that 2007 and 2008 had 14 and 13 Kansas kids respectively could be misleading. It could have been the BEST 13 or 14 players from Kansas in those years in contrast to later years when Gene was REQUIRED to fill his roster with Kansas kids regardless if they were deserving or not. There is a difference.

If I recall, an additional contributing factor was the incredible recruiting class shortly after 2008/09 time period when he recruited some kids that opted for signing a contract out of HS. Because of Gene's good/bad loyalty issue on not over-recruiting, WSU was stuck scrambling with 2nd and 3rd choices.

To answer your question. Yes, I believe Gene or Brent would have to be disciplined up to and including possible discharge. Additionally, the AD's compliance officer would have to be disciplined as well for not educating the staff to prevent the violations, nor identifying the violations to begin with.

[1972Shocker]

But.... to your point that 2007 and 2008 had 14 and 13 Kansas kids respectively could be misleading. It could have been the BEST 13 or 14 players from Kansas in those years in contrast to later years when Gene was REQUIRED to fill his roster with Kansas kids regardless if they were deserving or not. There is a difference.

I believe that provision that required a certain number of Kansas kids on the roster was put in when Bill Belknap was the AD. So it was there in 2007 and many years previous.

I do agree with you that getting the best 12 Kansas kids is the key. However, that's tougher to do these days with KU and KSU much more formidable in the recruiting wars among others. That provision might have made some sense when the Shocks were the cock of the walk in college baseball but not any more.

Why Gene didn't push to have it removed when he still had some leverage I don't know. Maybe he did and just couldn't get the AD to agree. I really can't say one way or the other.

[ShockTalk]

But.... to your point that 2007 and 2008 had 14 and 13 Kansas kids respectively could be misleading. It could have been the BEST 13 or 14 players from Kansas in those years in contrast to later years when Gene was REQUIRED to fill his roster with Kansas kids regardless if they were deserving or not. There is a difference.

If I recall, an additional contributing factor was the incredible recruiting class shortly after 2008/09 time period when he recruited some kids that opted for signing a contract out of HS. Because of Gene's good/bad loyalty issue on not over-recruiting, WSU was stuck scrambling with 2nd and 3rd choices.

To answer your question. Yes, I believe Gene or Brent would have to be disciplined up to and including possible discharge. Additionally, the AD's compliance officer would have to be disciplined as well for not educating the staff to prevent the violations, nor identifying the violations to begin with.

I know this is all supposition, but let's take an equally possible answer. @1972Shocker: made the assumption that KU and K St were getting the better Kansas kids. I'll make the argument that schools other than KU or K St, such as my examples of IN St and MSU were also getting Kansas kids that may have been as good or better than some Gene was "forced" to get. He may also have been "forced" to get those lesser Kansas kids because doors had been shut to him because of the Molina incident, the jump to OU, and/or the stalking incident. I feel this might be just as likely and, therefore, make the "forced" recruitment a non-issue.

As to the over-recruiting, I seemed to remember that, even on this board, a number thought that the likelihood of a couple of those kids ever playing college ball was remote. Nevertheless, that choice was Gene's and he's where the buck stops. No one but he was responsible for that happening.

On the last point, we all know that Gene didn't like interference from the Athletic Department, not just this administration, but also previous ones. If you took a poll with posters here that follow the baseball program, or not, and asked the question if selling the apparel at a team discount for non-baseball use was OK, a large percentage would have said no. At the very least, they would have questioned it enough to cleared it with Gene. Well, I'm sure Gene knew you shouldn't do it and I'm having a hard time not thinking that his long-term assistant would have been confident enough that it was OK to not even check with Gene. I will leave it at that.

[WSUwatcher]

Whether Butler over-recruits, as the one ax-ginding poster seemed determined to assert, isn't clear yet. It does seem apparent that he's taking advantage of the transient nature of college baseball to remake his roster and do so quickly.

The question about over-recruiting can better be answered next year and in the future, when we see what size classes bring in to fill the opening that occur naturally. Hopefully Kemnitz will also step up his recruiting quality vs. the last few years. He may have a great reputation, but who else can you hold accountable for the lack of depth, or the shortage of "power arms" beloved of Coach Butler?

[KansasShocker]

I'll agree that there was a lack of depth on this teams staff, but overall the pitching was not the problem this year IMO. It would be nice to see power arms coming out of our pen every game don't get me wrong, but I have always felt that Kemnitz does a great job and this year was no different

[ShockTalk]

Whether Butler over-recruits, as the one ax-ginding poster seemed determined to assert, isn't clear yet. It does seem apparent that he's taking advantage of the transient nature of college baseball to remake his roster and do so quickly.

The question about over-recruiting can better be answered next year and in the future, when we see what size classes bring in to fill the opening that occur naturally. Hopefully Kemnitz will also step up his recruiting quality vs. the last few years. He may have a great reputation, but who else can you hold accountable for the lack of depth, or the shortage of "power arms" beloved of Coach Butler?

Some of it will be on Butler. How much and how quickly he gets the WSU offense turned around should affect the recruitment of pitching.

A number of years ago I commented , more than once, that BK was still bringing in good pitching staffs. However, I also posted that the continued downturn of the offense would start to change that if not turned around. Quality pitchers do not want to feel the pressure of always having to go out and throw a shutout to win. I always thought that recruiting quality pitching with quality depth should be the hard part of player recruitment. Fewer numbers to go around. BK almost always seemed to be able to do that. What was mystifying to me was why we were not continuing to get quality hitters to match those pitching staffs. That should be easier, particularly given the pitching that WSU has had.

Well, here we are today. I think we are seeing some of those lesser pitching staffs off and on over the last few years.

[Cdizzle]

He may have a great reputation, but who else can you hold accountable for the lack of depth, or the shortage of "power arms" beloved of Coach Butler?

Cale Elam, AJ Ladwig and Sam Tewes are not power arms.

TJ Looney is.

I know which ones I'd take. That said, best of luck to Coach Butler in finding a 94 MPH flamethrower that can throw strikes that don't get hit. I'd love to see it.

[KansasShocker]

Cale Elam, AJ Ladwig and Sam Tewes are not power arms.

TJ Looney is.

I know which ones I'd take. That said, best of luck to Coach Butler in finding a 94 MPH flamethrower that can throw strikes that don't get hit. I'd love to see it. could not have said this any better myself.

[1972Shocker]

Assigning 94 mph as the definition of a power arm is pretty arbitrary and may or may no conform to what HCTB considers a power arm. My opinion is that HCTB would probably consider any pitcher who can consistently throw 90-92 mph would definitely qualify as a power arm. That would be a good question for HCTB on his radio show.

[Cdizzle]

I understand your point, but I would counter that assigning power arm to the definition of good pitcher is at least as arbitrary and may or not conform to what is required to record outs without giving up runs.

Like I said, I'm not against having guys that can pump the heat. I'd love to see it. Most of the guys that can throw 91-94 consistently, with control, are pitching on the west coast, or the minor leagues. I would wager we haven't just been turning them away.

[1972Shocker]

I don't know that anyone including HCTB is necessarily promoting power arms = superior pitching. I think what is being promoted is that all things being equal give me 91-92 over 88-89. Of course, things are rarely equal.

Give me movement over velocity most any day especially if that movement can be commanded. However, the margin for error at 91-92 is less than it is at 88-89. If the guy who can bring has a hard slider and a change up he can command even moderately they can be pretty effective. Generally, swing and miss stuff requires more than strictly velocity. Of course, I realize I am stating the obvious with that comment.

The following from a recent Paul Suellentrop article would suggest 90 mph is a power arm for Coach Butler.

Butler places particular importance on his relievers establishing that aura. He carries around a black notebook with future roster projections written in black ink. He writes velocity next to the names of each pitcher and he expects to see a lot them throwing 90 mph or faster in the coming seasons. He watched Tulane, Dallas Baptist and Illinois State protect leads by bringing in hard-throwing relievers and expressed admiration and a bit of envy. The Shockers rarely rallied when trailing late in game in part because its bullpen leaked runs.

Butler envisions pitchers possessing swing-and-miss stuff that can demoralize the opponent and shorten the game. Depending on how the June draft affects the roster, he believes his recruiting class can add that asset.

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2014/05/24/347...#storylink=cpy

[Ricardo del Rio]

Assigning 94 mph as the definition of a power arm is pretty arbitrary and may or may no conform to what HCTB considers a power arm. My opinion is that HCTB would probably consider any pitcher who can consistently throw 90-92 mph would definitely qualify as a power arm. That would be a good question for HCTB on his radio show.

In college baseball, I am happy with a nasty slider down. Tommy John down.

[1972Shocker]

Obviously, HCTB is not opposed to guys who simply can pitch:

Ferrendelli, from Gilbert, Ariz., is a two-way player at Chandler-Gilbert and will pitch at WSU. He is 7-1 with a 1.04 ERA and 97 strikeouts and 26 walks in 86 1/3 innings. He has thrown four complete games. As a freshman, he went 6-2 with a 2.10 ERA.

“He can really locate,” Butler said. “He’s not an overpowering guy, probably 88-91 mph, but he seems to really know what he’s doing on the mound.”

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2014/04/25/342...#storylink=cpy