What will it take?

[shox1989]

No, there isn't a rule at Kansas D-1 schools that I know of but IIRC Gene did have a provision in his contract, at least for a period of time, that did require a certain number of players from Kansas. I think that may have been put in back in the Bill Belknap era. I doubt that HCTB has any such restrictions in his contract.

According to previous threads on Shockernet, it was added because at the time WSU wasn't going to fund the full 11.7 scholarships. In order for WSU to agree to fund the full scholarship allotment Gene had to agree to get 1/3 of the recruits from Kansas (in-state tuition is a lot less than out of state). Also according to previous shockernet threads (there are threads that have links to all of Gene's contracts and addendums), that provision was never removed from his contract.

I don't remember exactly when the provision got added but it was a long time ago. It makes sense that it was probably done by Belknap. He was a miser and did make some other budget cuts to the baseball program. He tried to make more, but Gene started the Battery Club and raised his own money to stop some of the other cuts. For example, I do remember he was suppose to lose his administrative assistant (Cub at the time) but his own fundraising either saved the position or got it re-instated.


I would assume that Butler does not have the recruiting restriction. At least I hope not.

[1972Shocker]

I agree that the Christensen bean-ball incident was the beginning of the decline in Shocker baseball. The timing could not have been worse as it came right about the time that many large school conferences and universities were beginning to pay attention to and direct much more resources and effort into college baseball.

Gene's pre-Christensen/Molina record and performance was simply magical. Perhaps as good a job of program building as you will ever see comparable to what Bill Snyder did with KSU football. Unfortunately, the post-Christensen/Molina road has been full of twist, turns and potholes. The dalliance with OU in 2005, the 2008 stalking incident, Gene's divorce from Paula (I would think this took some toll on Gene at the personal level), the 2011 drunk driving incident involving WSU players and finally the impermissible UnderArmour benefits leading to suspensions. Clearly the OU dalliance, the stalking incidents and the drunk driving incidents were no doubt used against Gene and staff on the recruiting trails, but the big one was the Christensen/Molina incident. That pretty much left a permanent tarnish on Gene's legacy. My guess is the 2011 drunk driving incident was the last straw that sealed Gene's fate.

In the 16 years from 1985 to 2000 the Shocks won 15 outright Valley Championships and finished 2nd once. The Shocks were perennial NCAA Regional participants and they were in 6 CWS in the 16 year stretch.

In the eight years from 2001 through 2008 the Shocks won 4 Valley Championships, finished 2nd 3 times and finished 3rd once. We won 5 Valley Tournament Championships. We participated in an NCAA Regional in 7 years going 16-11 and we participated in 2 Super-Regionals going 1-4. 2008 was the last year we had an NCAA at-large worthy record.

In the last 6 years the Shocks have 1 Valley Co-Championship, 2 second place finishes, 2 third place finishes and 1 fourth place finish and no at-large worthy records. We have been in 2 regionals, both as a result of winning MVC Tournament Championships, going 0-4 in those two regionals.

The questions in my mind are 1)have we hit bottom yet and 2) what is are reasonable expectations going forward?

Regarding the 1st question I'm not sure we have hit bottom. I am quite concerned about what next year will bring. We are pretty much losing substantially all of the best talent we did have on this year's team assuming the draft goes as expected. I realize that HCTB's recruiting class looks pretty good on paper, but we don't know what that will look like for sure until after the draft and even if we come out relatively unscathed it is an awful lot to expect a bunch of first-year D-1 players to step and immediately be substantially better than what we have been IMO.

As far as expectations go I don't ever expect us to duplicate what Gene did in his first 20 years. I think those days are gone forever. I think if we could return to what we were doing from 2001 through 2008 with perhaps 1 or 2 trips to the CWS every decade would be more than satisfactory. Win the Valley at least half the time. Finish 2nd in the year's we don't win. Make the NCAA Tournament 70% to 80% of the time. Win 2 or 3 regionals every 10 years and win a Super-Regional once or twice every 10 years. I consider these expectations once we can get the program stabilized and back on firm footing to actually be quite lofty. It will not be easy getting there. If HCTB can do this I will consider him a great success.

[tru2thaduce]

I have very low expectations for next year.The year after that will be different.One thing is for sure,I am ready to look forward to what Coach Butler can bring in and put the past in the past.I am confident Coach can wake up this sleeping giant.

[ShockTalk]

Very good post @1972Shocker:. The only thing I feel different about is how often we win the Valley regular season. With our coaches salaries and our fan support, I don't feel it unreasonable to ask that we win 4 out of 5 years or at least 7 out of 10 years. If someone can show me that other Valley schools are paying somewhat close to the same salaries as ours and have the financial resources similar to ours, I'll think differently.

This has been my main gripe all along. I have understood the difficulty in getting back to the CWS and not winning as many regionals. I have not understood how we could pay a top 10 (at worst, top 20) salary and not expect, as minimum, a continued dominance of the Valley. Gene had no excuse for that. That was not too much to ask for half a mill a year. Butler is also making good jack and what he does in the Valley will be the first sign of success.

[Veritas]

According to previous threads on Shockernet, it was added because at the time WSU wasn't going to fund the full 11.7 scholarships. In order for WSU to agree to fund the full scholarship allotment Gene had to agree to get 1/3 of the recruits from Kansas (in-state tuition is a lot less than out of state). Also according to previous shockernet threads (there are threads that have links to all of Gene's contracts and addendums), that provision was never removed from his contract.

I don't remember exactly when the provision got added but it was a long time ago. It makes sense that it was probably done by Belknap. He was a miser and did make some other budget cuts to the baseball program. He tried to make more, but Gene started the Battery Club and raised his own money to stop some of the other cuts. For example, I do remember he was suppose to lose his administrative assistant (Cub at the time) but his own fundraising either saved the position or got it re-instated.


I would assume that Butler does not have the recruiting restriction. At least I hope not.

Gracious. Let's hope it's not true. If indeed this was continued until Gene's dismissal it validates my point that there were other issues setting him up for failure. I find it amazingly unbelievable though if it was left in his contract until the end.

[SB Shock]

Coach Butler Contract:

1. Ends June 30, 2020 (unless extended)
2. Reports Directly to the AD
3. Must abide by all NCAA rules
4. Must not have any business, professional or personal activities that adversely reflect on WSU
5. Failure to abide will be a material breach of contract
6. Salary $300,000
7. 30,000 signing bonus
8. +20,000 increase in 2015, 2017 and are automatic
9. Additional compensation
a. Winning Conference Record - 1/2 of Month pay ($12,500)
b. MVC tournament champion- 1/2 of Month Pay
c. APR >= 0.930 - 1/2 of Month pay
d. Coach of Year - 1/2 of month pay
e. NCAA Post-Season - 1/2 of month pay
f. NCAA super regional - 1/2 of month pay
g. CWS appearance - 1 of month pay
h. CWS winner - 1 month of pay
i. NCAA coach of the year (by NCBWA or BA) - 1 month of pay

10. Receives normal medical, sick leave, workers compensation, life insurance (500,000)
11. Car or an allowance for a car (does anybody know what car he drives?)
12. Membership at local health club
13. Membership at country body
14. Slybox w/tickets
15. Private plane for use up to 3 trips per year
16. Keep 2 assistant coaches and DBO with a salary pool up to $358,000.
17. Additional opportunities for income
a. Contracts for radio, TV and commercial endorsements
b. Operation of sports camps - has two weeks a year. Facilties provided at no cost.
c. endorsement for athletic shoes, apparell and baseball equipment.
d. Speaking engagements


18. WSU Buyout of Butler contract- $1,400,000 or the remaining amount of his base contract, whichever is less.
19. Butler leaves WSU before 2016 - 300,000 buyout
20. HCTB cannot seek to be Wallmart Greeter in the offseason (or another employment) without AD approval

No other restrictions on recruiting or anything like that, only legal mumbo jumbo

[pogo]

I don't think it validates your point since it was a continuing provision. It may have contributed to his inability to field competitive teams but title town and k who were better with a number of Kansas kids on their rosters. On a separate issue the idea that an in state scholarship costs the university less than an in state scholarship is wrong. On paper there is a difference but it costs exactly the same for an instate scholar athlete to attend a class as it does an out of state scholar athlete. The difference is what the athlete has to pick up on his/her own if it is only a partial scholarship.

[Veritas]

I don't think it validates your point since it was a continuing provision. It may have contributed to his inability to field competitive teams but title town and k who were better with a number of Kansas kids on their rosters. On a separate issue the idea that an in state scholarship costs the university less than an in state scholarship is wrong. On paper there is a difference but it costs exactly the same for an instate scholar athlete to attend a class as it does an out of state scholar athlete. The difference is what the athlete has to pick up on his/her own if it is only a partial scholarship.

Was it a continuing provision that both KSU and KU coaches didn't need to follow. As more schools and leagues started to pump money into thier programs, WSU needed every advantage it could get. Doesn't seem like a fair playing field for WSU if the other D1 schools in Kansas didn't have to follow the same restrictions.
How does that not validate my point regarding other issues that could have added to the downward spiral of the Shocker program.
Are you saying Pogo, that both KU and KSU also had the same recruiting restrictions?

[Veritas]

Coach Butler Contract:

1. Ends June 30, 2020 (unless extended)
2. Reports Directly to the AD
3. Must abide by all NCAA rules
4. Must not have any business, professional or personal activities that adversely reflect on WSU
5. Failure to abide will be a material breach of contract
6. Salary $300,000
7. 30,000 signing bonus
8. +20,000 increase in 2015, 2017 and are automatic
9. Additional compensation
a. Winning Conference Record - 1/2 of Month pay ($12,500)
b. MVC tournament champion- 1/2 of Month Pay
c. APR >= 0.930 - 1/2 of Month pay
d. Coach of Year - 1/2 of month pay
e. NCAA Post-Season - 1/2 of month pay
f. NCAA super regional - 1/2 of month pay
g. CWS appearance - 1 of month pay
h. CWS winner - 1 month of pay
i. NCAA coach of the year (by NCBWA or BA) - 1 month of pay

10. Receives normal medical, sick leave, workers compensation, life insurance (500,000)
11. Car or an allowance for a car (does anybody know what car he drives?)
12. Membership at local health club
13. Membership at country body
14. Slybox w/tickets
15. Private plane for use up to 3 trips per year
16. Keep 2 assistant coaches and DBO with a salary pool up to $358,000.
17. Additional opportunities for income
a. Contracts for radio, TV and commercial endorsements
b. Operation of sports camps - has two weeks a year. Facilties provided at no cost.
c. endorsement for athletic shoes, apparell and baseball equipment.
d. Speaking engagements


18. WSU Buyout of Butler contract- $1,400,000 or the remaining amount of his base contract, whichever is less.
19. Butler leaves WSU before 2016 - 300,000 buyout
20. HCTB cannot seek to be Wallmart Greeter in the offseason (or another employment) without AD approval

No other restrictions on recruiting or anything like that, only legal mumbo jumbo

Good stuff SB. Do you have Gene 'a contract and source available as we'll?

[1972Shocker]

Here are the number of Kansas on the roster since 2007 followed by the teams record:

2007 (14): 53-22 (1st MVC; NCAA Super-Regional in Wichita)
2008 (13): 48-17 (1st MVC; NCAA Super-REgional in Tallahassee)
2009 (11): 30-27 (3rd MVC; MVC T/C; NCAA Stillwater Regional)
2010 (12): 41-19 (t1st MVC)
2011 (12): 39-26 (2nd MVC)
2012 (13): 35-25 (3rd MVC)
2013 (11): 39-28 (2nd MVC; MVC T/C; NCAA Manhattan Regional)
2014 (11): 31-28 (4th MVC)

Not sure what next year's roster will look like but HCTB has 8 Kansans among the 22 recruits that I am aware of. In addition, he has a couple from the Kansas City, MO area. So it's possible we will end up with about 1/3rd of the roster made up of Kansas next year as well.

Still it's clearly best not to tie the hands of a Coach especially in a low population state like Kansas where the depth of talent can come and go. Plus Kansas and KSU are much more formidable competitors for Kansas talent than they were when that clause was put into Gene's contract.

If it was cramping Gene's style, however, I find it hard to believe he could not have negotiated it out of his contract if he so desired. However, I have no knowledge of whether Gene made any attempts to do so or not. When you are recruiting kids that maybe paying most of their own way, and I think you can now only have 27 kids on scholarship, meaning you will have 8 kids receiving no baseball scholarship help an in-state school will look a lot more attractive to many players than will an out-of-state school. So recruiting the in-state talent is still pretty important if its available.

[SB Shock]

Good stuff SB. Do you have Gene 'a contract and source available as we'll?

I don't have Gene contract detail available. I had read it and it was at one point on kansas.com. Butler contract is on kansas.com now.

[pogo]

Was it a continuing provision that both KSU and KU coaches didn't need to follow. As more schools and leagues started to pump money into thier programs, WSU needed every advantage it could get. Doesn't seem like a fair playing field for WSU if the other D1 schools in Kansas didn't have to follow the same restrictions.
How does that not validate my point regarding other issues that could have added to the downward spiral of the Shocker program.
Are you saying Pogo, that both KU and KSU also had the same recruiting restrictions?

No I am just saying that you seem to be cherry picking in this instance.

[1979Shocker]

No, there isn't a rule at Kansas D-1 schools that I know of but IIRC Gene did have a provision in his contract, at least for a period of time, that did require a certain number of players from Kansas. I think that may have been put in back in the Bill Belknap era. I doubt that HCTB has any such restrictions in his contract.

Okay. That's probably what I was thinking of.

[Veritas]

No I am just saying that you seem to be cherry picking in this instance.

Disagree. I don't understand why so many Gene haters refuse to acknowledge that perhaps there were other issues that might have made it harder to win today. The Kansas recruiting restriction seems like a valid concern and a contributing factor.

[ShockTalk]

Here are the number of Kansas on the roster since 2007 followed by the teams record:

2007 (14): 53-22 (1st MVC; NCAA Super-Regional in Wichita)
2008 (13): 48-17 (1st MVC; NCAA Super-REgional in Tallahassee)
2009 (11): 30-27 (3rd MVC; MVC T/C; NCAA Stillwater Regional)
2010 (12): 41-19 (t1st MVC)
2011 (12): 39-26 (2nd MVC)
2012 (13): 35-25 (3rd MVC)
2013 (11): 39-28 (2nd MVC; MVC T/C; NCAA Manhattan Regional)
2014 (11): 31-28 (4th MVC)

Not sure what next year's roster will look like but HCTB has 8 Kansans among the 22 recruits that I am aware of. In addition, he has a couple from the Kansas City, MO area. So it's possible we will end up with about 1/3rd of the roster made up of Kansas next year as well.

Still it's clearly best not to tie the hands of a Coach especially in a low population state like Kansas where the depth of talent can come and go. Plus Kansas and KSU are much more formidable competitors for Kansas talent than they were when that clause was put into Gene's contract.

If it was cramping Gene's style, however, I find it hard to believe he could not have negotiated it out of his contract if he so desired. However, I have no knowledge of whether Gene made any attempts to do so or not. When you are recruiting kids that maybe paying most of their own way, and I think you can now only have 27 kids on scholarship, meaning you will have 8 kids receiving no baseball scholarship help an in-state school will look a lot more attractive to many players than will an out-of-state school. So recruiting the in-state talent is still pretty important if its available.

Disagree. I don't understand why so many Gene haters refuse to acknowledge that perhaps there were other issues that might have made it harder to win today. The Kansas recruiting restriction seems like a valid concern and a contributing factor.

@1972Shocker: post above would seem to make that concern inconclusive at best (only 8 years of rosters shown on goshockers.com), but the 3 best years had as many or more Kansas players than the other worse years.

I know populations of other states have an affect being able to find enough players within your own state. However, 30 of 33 players on Illinois St roster are from Illinois; IN St has 14 home-grown players, and MSU has 18 from Missouri (8 from SW Missouri and 5 from the KCMO area). IN St also has 3 KS players, 2 with stats, pitchers with a combined 43 games, 76 innings, and a 2.50 ERA. MSU has 4 KS players, 2 pitchers appeared to be injured this season (both very effective last year) and 2 position players, both starters and one with the 2nd best batting average on the team. It would appear other Valley schools found enough KS kids available who could helped them.

Basically, I don't think this "restriction" had hurt Gene, at least from Valley performance at minimum.

Question. Do you think, had Gene not been let go, he would have self reported the apparel violations? If yes, would this, given all the other "problems" been enough to let Gene go? If he didn't self report, but the ADs office found later in the year, would that have been enough?