What will it take?

[Veritas]

Pretty good article as a start

http://www.kansas.com/2014/05/24/3473080/wsu-notes-deeper-pitching-can.html

Any other suggestions?

[Shocker-maniac]

http://www.kansas.com/2014/05/24/347...ching-can.html

[BostonWu]

Loved reading this dose of reality...

“There’s no mystique right now,” Butler said. “It’s been gone for years. It takes a tremendous amount of effort and attitude and work to get that back. That doesn’t come easy.”


These not so much...

“It’s confidence, but confidence comes from winning,” WSU senior pitcher Aaron LaBrie said. “Once they start winning again, like we should and like everyone thought we were going to, you’ll have that intimidation factor.”

“We need to play a lot of tough-minded baseball next year and just win like they have in the past,” sophomore center fielder Daniel Kihle said. “Nobody remembers how tough you play unless you get the win.”


Sorry this is not a confidence or toughness issue but just plain talent. These guys are trying but we need some horses and right now the barn is empty.

[Veritas]

I know this may come across as being insensitive and crass, but it seems the Shocker baseball mystique started to unwind in 1999 with the Molina incident. It seems after that, the Shocker program started to endeavor to change its image and didn't carry that bully win at all costs swagger.
I don't think the Molina incident was intentional, and was bad for all involved; especially Molina. It does seem the mystique was intentionally softened by the WSU coaching staff. A wound that perhaps hasn't healed?

[pogo]

That may be cause for all that has transpired since then. I never thought of it that way but it does merit serious consideration.

[ShockTalk]

I know this may come across as being insensitive and crass, but it seems the Shocker baseball mystique started to unwind in 1999 with the Molina incident. It seems after that, the Shocker program started to endeavor to change its image and didn't carry that bully win at all costs swagger.
I don't think the Molina incident was intentional, and was bad for all involved; especially Molina. It does seem the mystique was intentionally softened by the WSU coaching staff. A wound that perhaps hasn't healed?

I don't know about the "mystique was intentionally softened by the WSU coaching staff", but after the initial media interviews with Stephenson where Gene tried to "softly justify" what happened, he may have had to do a little damage control. I looked for the original articles that included his statements, but couldn't find them this time (this has come up in the past and I found those statements).

More than likely, some doors by high school coaches, parents, and players were closed due to the incident. Even though we continued to sign quality pitchers, it was at that time that our offense started its downward trend.

Also, it is more than just that incident. I'm sure the jump to OU added to his WSU recruiting woes as well as the off the field problems. Add all this together with the change in attitude of large schools getting more involved with baseball and what was reported by some college coaches as "not seeing WSU" on the recruiting trails as often, it's not much of a mystery as to our lack of success and mystique.

[Aargh]

I always considered the Molina incident as the significant event most damaging to WSU baseball. Try to imagine anything with less class than beaning a batter during warmups because the batter wasn't in the on-deck circle.

That's not just bad. That's classless, immoral, and despicable. Then Christiansen made it worse by saying that's what the coaches had taught him. Stephenson and Kemnitz were screwed. They had no way out. They came to the support of their guy, which permanently branded them as absolute assholes on the recruiting trails.

How hard can it be to recruit against a coach who is on record as supporting a pitcher who intentionally threw a 90+ mph fastball at a guy before the game even started? To make it even worse, Molina had no reason to be watching for a pitch headed his directioon - so no reason to see it and duck. Then he ended up with a broken face and damaged vision.

Ya think there may be more than a few quality players who might not want to play for that program?

The moment Christinsen threw the coaches under the bus, and the coaches backed Christiansen, was the moment the coaching staff should have either been replaced or SEVERELY reprimanded, but the athletic department seems to have been fairly silent on the whole situation.

This is the equivalent of a basketball player sucker-punching an opponent, breaking a few bones in the opponent's face, and causing permanent vision damage. Then that basketball player saying that's what his coaches have taught him. Then the coaching staff sort of denying any involvement, but fighting against any sanctions against the player.

Take a look at when WSU's baseball success took a turn for the worse and when the recruiting no longer produced top talent. I don't think it's any coincidence that the Christiansen incident seems to be right at the time that WSU's baseball fortunes took a major turn for the worse.

Schaus should have fired Gene, but I don't think Schaus had the cojones to take on that fight at that time. Gene had to repeatedly prove that he was done as the formerly greatest college baseball coach of all time before Sexton had to pull the trigger.

Even with Gene taking WSU from a perennial CWS contender to an "above average" MVC team, there are still some who think Gene should still be in charge of the program.

[AndShock]

It's too bad Christensen doesn't have the opportunity to throw at Molina's head now, he'd probably be called a hero.

[Shocker Rocker]

I always considered the Molina incident as the significant event most damaging to WSU baseball. Try to imagine anything with less class than beaning a batter during warmups because the batter wasn't in the on-deck circle.

That's not just bad. That's classless, immoral, and despicable. Then Christiansen made it worse by saying that's what the coaches had taught him. Stephenson and Kemnitz were screwed. They had no way out. They came to the support of their guy, which permanently branded them as absolute assholes on the recruiting trails.

How hard can it be to recruit against a coach who is on record as supporting a pitcher who intentionally threw a 90+ mph fastball at a guy before the game even started? To make it even worse, Molina had no reason to be watching for a pitch headed his directioon - so no reason to see it and duck. Then he ended up with a broken face and damaged vision.

Ya think there may be more than a few quality players who might not want to play for that program?

The moment Christinsen threw the coaches under the bus, and the coaches backed Christiansen, was the moment the coaching staff should have either been replaced or SEVERELY reprimanded, but the athletic department seems to have been fairly silent on the whole situation.

This is the equivalent of a basketball player sucker-punching an opponent, breaking a few bones in the opponent's face, and causing permanent vision damage. Then that basketball player saying that's what his coaches have taught him. Then the coaching staff sort of denying any involvement, but fighting against any sanctions against the player.

Take a look at when WSU's baseball success took a turn for the worse and when the recruiting no longer produced top talent. I don't think it's any coincidence that the Christiansen incident seems to be right at the time that WSU's baseball fortunes took a major turn for the worse.

Schaus should have fired Gene, but I don't think Schaus had the cojones to take on that fight at that time. Gene had to repeatedly prove that he was done as the formerly greatest college baseball coach of all time before Sexton had to pull the trigger.

Even with Gene taking WSU from a perennial CWS contender to an "above average" MVC team, there are still some who think Gene should still be in charge of the program.

How much is this incident still an issue for recruiting, given that Kemnitz is still the pitching coach?

[Veritas]

I always considered the Molina incident as the significant event most damaging to WSU baseball. Try to imagine anything with less class than beaning a batter during warmups because the batter wasn't in the on-deck circle.

That's not just bad. That's classless, immoral, and despicable. Then Christiansen made it worse by saying that's what the coaches had taught him. Stephenson and Kemnitz were screwed. They had no way out. They came to the support of their guy, which permanently branded them as absolute assholes on the recruiting trails.

How hard can it be to recruit against a coach who is on record as supporting a pitcher who intentionally threw a 90+ mph fastball at a guy before the game even started? To make it even worse, Molina had no reason to be watching for a pitch headed his directioon - so no reason to see it and duck. Then he ended up with a broken face and damaged vision.

Ya think there may be more than a few quality players who might not want to play for that program?

The moment Christinsen threw the coaches under the bus, and the coaches backed Christiansen, was the moment the coaching staff should have either been replaced or SEVERELY reprimanded, but the athletic department seems to have been fairly silent on the whole situation.

This is the equivalent of a basketball player sucker-punching an opponent, breaking a few bones in the opponent's face, and causing permanent vision damage. Then that basketball player saying that's what his coaches have taught him. Then the coaching staff sort of denying any involvement, but fighting against any sanctions against the player.

Take a look at when WSU's baseball success took a turn for the worse and when the recruiting no longer produced top talent. I don't think it's any coincidence that the Christiansen incident seems to be right at the time that WSU's baseball fortunes took a major turn for the worse.

Schaus should have fired Gene, but I don't think Schaus had the cojones to take on that fight at that time. Gene had to repeatedly prove that he was done as the formerly greatest college baseball coach of all time before Sexton had to pull the trigger.

Even with Gene taking WSU from a perennial CWS contender to an "above average" MVC team, there are still some who think Gene should still be in charge of the program.

I'm not condoning what happened, and I'm not a lawyer, nor do I know with certainty what happened or what was going on in BC's head, but I do question your statement that he "intentionally threw a 90 mph fastall at a guy" in contrast to "towards" a guy. I don't think he meant to hit him. It was a stupid and irresponsible throw to scare him, brush him back, or get his attention, and unfortunately, it DID hit him. I'm just not sure about the "intentionally" throwing "at" the guy.

It certainly seems the beginning of the downward spiral for the program though.

Secondly, without beating the proverbial dead horse, but to address your last statement. There are a few on this board that simply question what other tangibles might have added to program's challenges and also wish that he could have gone out with more respect directed his way. I don't believe it's as simple as your last statment.

[1979Shocker]

Wasn't there a rule that Kansas D-1 schools had to have so many players from Kansas on their rosters? Or maybe I was just dreaming. I thought I saw that some place on Shockernet. If the player skill level for Kansas high school players has dropped over the last few years, that doesn't look good for WSU.

[pogo]

Wasn't there a rule that Kansas D-1 schools had to have so many players from Kansas on their rosters? Or maybe I was just dreaming. I thought I saw that some place on Shockernet. If the player skill level for Kansas high school players has dropped over the last few years, that doesn't look good for WSU.

I don't believe its a rule at the D1 level but I believe the JUCO's have a mandate that a certain number of its athletes are Kansas kids.

[WuShock16]

Schaus should have fired Gene, but I don't think Schaus had the cojones to take on that fight at that time. Gene had to repeatedly prove that he was done as the formerly greatest college baseball coach of all time before Sexton had to pull the trigger.

The BC incident happened in April of 1999. Schaus wasn't hired until June of 1999, so there probably was no way that he could have made the call to pull the trigger on that. President Beggs arrived in January of 1999, so he was here...but again, I am not sure a move could have been made at that time. You think firing Gene now has been controversial? This has been tame compared to doing that 15 years ago. Could it have been justified? Absolutely. That said, all hell would have broken loose.

[ShockTalk]

I always considered the Molina incident as the significant event most damaging to WSU baseball. Try to imagine anything with less class than beaning a batter during warmups because the batter wasn't in the on-deck circle.

That's not just bad. That's classless, immoral, and despicable. Then Christiansen made it worse by saying that's what the coaches had taught him. Stephenson and Kemnitz were screwed. They had no way out. They came to the support of their guy, which permanently branded them as absolute assholes on the recruiting trails.

To imply that BC initially threw to hit Molina and that this is what the coaches taught him is also classless. It was a grave error in judgment by BC. It was also wrong for Gene to try and justify why BC threw to send just a message that just went horribly wrong (I don't remember reading the same type of quotes from BK). I understood there was some bad blood between BC and Molina from summer ball. Still, that is no justification for throwing in the vicinity of someone who isn't even looking.

How much is this incident still an issue for recruiting, given that Kemnitz is still the pitching coach?

For what ever reasons, BK continued to bring in strong pitching staffs and, not until the last several years, has the quality depth of the staff been effected. I believe BK can still recruit quality staffs and that the depth of those staffs may improve from recent years.

I'm not condoning what happened, and I'm not a lawyer, nor do I know with certainty what happened or what was going on in BC's head, but I do question your statement that he "intentionally threw a 90 mph fastall at a guy" in contrast to "towards" a guy. I don't think he meant to hit him. It was a stupid and irresponsible throw to scare him, brush him back, or get his attention, and unfortunately, it DID hit him. I'm just not sure about the "intentionally" throwing "at" the guy.

It certainly seems the beginning of the downward spiral for the program though.

Secondly, without beating the proverbial dead horse, but to address your last statement. There are a few on this board that simply question what other tangibles might have added to program's challenges and also wish that he could have gone out with more respect directed his way. I don't believe it's as simple as your last statment.

There are things that are public knowledge and things that are not. I'm sure you understand the downside to a person making statements not of public knowledge. That said, I gave several other tangibles in my post: the OU mess (not that long after the BC/Molina incident), a few years later, the stalking case (yes, they settled out of court, Genes's wife of 40+ years stood by him, but divorced him later), and statements to the media by more than one coach that the WSU staff had not been seen on the recruiting trails near as much as they use to be (don't give me possible recruiting budget woes as I bet our budget is in line with what most others get).

[1972Shocker]

Wasn't there a rule that Kansas D-1 schools had to have so many players from Kansas on their rosters? Or maybe I was just dreaming. I thought I saw that some place on Shockernet. If the player skill level for Kansas high school players has dropped over the last few years, that doesn't look good for WSU.

No, there isn't a rule at Kansas D-1 schools that I know of but IIRC Gene did have a provision in his contract, at least for a period of time, that did require a certain number of players from Kansas. I think that may have been put in back in the Bill Belknap era. I doubt that HCTB has any such restrictions in his contract.