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Reasonable Expectations for Shocker Baseball?

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  • Reasonable Expectations for Shocker Baseball?

    I've been giving quite a bit of thought to what should be reasonable expectations for WSU Baseball in today's College Baseball environment.

    I have little doubt that the College Baseball environment has changed significantly in the last 15 years and that making it to the CWS is no doubt tougher than it has ever been. The number of other programs that have become more competitive in terms of facilities, funding and interest in College Baseball means we simply don't have the ability to cherry pick the best talent anymore. Unfortunately, our own success was probably a contributing factor for this happening among other things (i.e. ESPN coverage, etc.).

    We have 7 CWS appearances to our credit. Six of those occurred during a 9-year stretch from 1988 through 1996. During that strectch we won 1 CWS title (1989) and finished 2nd twice (1991 and 1993) in addition to our 2nd place finish in 1982. Excluding the 9 year stretch from 1988 to 1996 we have been to one CWS in 26 years. It has been 16 years (almost a generation) since our last CWS world series. Certainly ancient history to any current recruits. In the current environment CWS appearances would seem to be something we should aspire to but only expect on a fairly rare occasion perhaps.

    But what about post-season play. Being in the MVC surely it is still reasonable to expect us to at least reach post-season play on a regular basis. No doubt the WSU success has raised all boats in the MVC also and I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect a championship every year. Occassionally, and this past year was a good example, you will have one or more MVC schools loaded with juniors and seniros and sometimes that is enough of an advantage for them to win a title. However, outside of Creighton and MSU not sure any of the MVC schools really have the facilities, funding and/or fan support to consistently be a threat. Plus we may actaully may have a slight weather advantage vs much of the rest of the MVC. With our facilities, tradition, and fan support (assuming it does not totally dry up) I would think reasonable expectation would be along the following lines:

    Win the MVC 3 out of every 5 years and be in the top 3 every year.
    Play in a regional 5 out of every 10 years. (Occasionally, the MVC will be a 1 bid league and we won't be the auto-bid even if we win the regular season title)
    Play in a super-regional 2 out of every 10 years.
    Play in a CWS 1 out of every 10 years.

    Too optimistic? Too pessimistic? Or about right? What say you Shocker baseball fans?

    Of course, the other question is should the current coaching staff be allowed to try fulfill whatever expectations we have or should we go a different direction. A whole other question that has been discussed a lot and my take is the consensus is that we should probably turn to a new direction when Gene's current contract expires.

    Remember this is not what we should aspire to but what would be reasonable to expect.
    Last edited by 1972Shocker; June 22, 2012, 03:11 PM.

  • #2
    I'll put in my 2 cents worth. First, yes, the overall college baseball environment has changed since the 90's, but more so outside of the Valley than within. That's not to say the Valley hasn't or won't be competitive most years. It's just that I believe WSU has changed more (and not for the better) through the 2000's than the Valley has improved.

    One can tell a clear change starting to happen with WSU starting with 2000 when compared to the 1990's. However, from 2000 to 2008, we won the Valley only 5 of 9 years, but made a Regional 8 of 9 years. Plus, in 2009, we made a Regional in spite of having the worst year ever under Gene. So I believe your estimate of winning the Valley is probably reasonable, but under what should be expected for making a Regional. There will more years where we should win the Valley tournament (while not finishing 1st in the regular season) and/or getting an at-large bid than there will be years we finish 1st and not go to a Regional.

    I don't believe the college baseball environment has changed that much from the early to mid 2000s compared to the last 4 years. We have just continued to get worse and worse as shown by our performance those 4 years. Therefore, I view those last years as unacceptable performance. That's not to say we wouldn't expect to have a year like those, just not back to back, much less 4 years running.

    Edit: There was a time when finishing 2nd in the Valley was unacceptable. I will lower my reasonable expectations to finishing 3rd no more than 1 in 10 years.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 1972Shocker View Post

      Win the MVC 3 out of every 5 years and be in the top 3 every year.
      Play in a regional 5 out of every 10 years. (Occasionally, the MVC will be a 1 bid league and we won't be the auto-bid even if we win the regular season title)
      Play in a super-regional 2 out of every 10 years.
      Play in a CWS 1 out of every 10 years.

      Too optimistic? Too pessimistic? Or about right? What say you Shocker baseball fans?
      To low of expectations IMO, at least for the resources WSU is investing in the the program in facilities and salaries. If WSU is just going to be a run of the mill team of the MVC then WSU might as well invest the resources somewhere else - girls basketball, volleyball, etc.

      Win the MVC: 7 out every 10 years (they should win it 4 out 5 years, but I will give a slip up)
      NCAA Regional: 8 out of every 10 years (1 of the 3 years they don't win the MVC they should at least win the tourney)
      Super Regional: 4 out of every 10 years
      CWS: 2 out every 10 years
      WSU finishes 1st or 2nd every year in the MVC (that gives them at least a chance for at-large).
      Last edited by SB Shock; June 23, 2012, 01:58 PM.

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      • #4
        I think WSU should be in the NCAA every year.

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        • #5
          Look out! I'm agree with ABC on something!

          Missing a regional is unacceptable for this program. We aren't SWOMO or Creighton. We're Wichita State. The last 3 years have been unacceptable.
          Deuces Valley.
          ... No really, deuces.
          ________________
          "Enjoy the ride."

          - a smart man

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          • #6
            With our financial commitment, facilities and fans, we should be dancing 9 out of 10 years. The last four seasons make me want to throw up.

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            • #7
              maybe 19 out of 20.

              Before this recent swoon, WSU had missed only two tournaments, '86 and '01 since 84. That's 23 out of 25.

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              • #8
                With how it is going,, I'd be happy around .600. I think around 45 wins every year and the ncaa's is fully attainable.

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                • #9
                  We should make a regional 9 of 10 years while hosting, HOPEFULLY, 2 or 3 of those years. We have the facilities, homegrown talent, and access to heartland and southern plains recruiting hot beds. I do not think these are unreasable expectations because of the the fact that the Valley isn't a powerhouse conference by any means and we have the ability to schedule top tier program consistantly year in, year out.
                  Last edited by small tyme baller; June 27, 2012, 01:27 PM. Reason: clerical error
                  Up your nose with a rubber hose - Barbarino

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                  • #10
                    Get to Omaha once every four years. Too much to ask of an old man?
                    Last edited by DUShock; June 28, 2012, 05:21 AM.
                    “Losers Average Losers.” ― Paul Tudor Jones

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                    • #11
                      Our expectation should be that as the college baseball landscape changes, we make appropriate adjustments and change with it. That means the expectation of the NCAAs every year, and we make the CWS on a regular basis (every few years or so). We were once a powerhouse in college baseball, arguably the powerhouse. What's happened to us in the past few years has been completely unacceptable.
                      "It's amazing to watch Ron slide into that open area, Fred will find him and it's straight cash homie."--HCGM

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                      • #12
                        So many people call for Stephenson to be fired.. as if there is another coach that can come in here and raise Wichita State back to 80's/90's levels.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by another shocker View Post
                          So many people call for Stephenson to be fired.. as if there is another coach that can come in here and raise Wichita State back to 80's/90's levels.
                          It sounds as if you have thrown in the towel.

                          First, what's "So many people call for Stephenson to be fired" have to do with this thread? I believe those comments are posted elsewhere.

                          This thread deals with what Shocker fans feel is reasonable expectations for performance, regardless of whose coaching. I think there may also be some who feel that given the salaries involved, that 80's/90's levels should be hit. However, most understand that those levels may not be reasonable any longer. So how about the performance level of 2000-2008? That should be a very attainable target and the "college baseball scene" has change very little (if at all) during that time.

                          From 2000-2008, WSU won 5 of 9 regular season titles, won 6 MVC tournaments, made 8 regionals, 2 supers, and finished a low of 3rd only once.

                          From 2009-2012, WSU won 1 (tied) of 4 regular season titles, won 1 MVC tournaments, made 1 regional, no supers, and finished 3rd twice.

                          Do you feel WSU got its money's worth???

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ShockTalk View Post
                            It sounds as if you have thrown in the towel.

                            First, what's "So many people call for Stephenson to be fired" have to do with this thread? I believe those comments are posted elsewhere.

                            This thread deals with what Shocker fans feel is reasonable expectations for performance, regardless of whose coaching. I think there may also be some who feel that given the salaries involved, that 80's/90's levels should be hit. However, most understand that those levels may not be reasonable any longer. So how about the performance level of 2000-2008? That should be a very attainable target and the "college baseball scene" has change very little (if at all) during that time.

                            From 2000-2008, WSU won 5 of 9 regular season titles, won 6 MVC tournaments, made 8 regionals, 2 supers, and finished a low of 3rd only once.

                            From 2009-2012, WSU won 1 (tied) of 4 regular season titles, won 1 MVC tournaments, made 1 regional, no supers, and finished 3rd twice.

                            Do you feel WSU got its money's worth???
                            Well said...

                            Nobody thinks the late 80's early 90's is possible again. At least I don't think anybody does. However I do expect what they did in the 00's. In fact just take the 00's and whatever that was, then thats what I think the program is capable of on a consistent basis.

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                            • #15
                              With Stephenson at the top, I have no expectations for this program anymore
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