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**pogo** · February 23, 2019, 10:54 AM

We were paying top 5 money six years ago with few results. We were also not in a robust baseball conference. We are not where we want to be and bitching about it is not going to change a thing. I will be very disappointed if changes aren’t made at the end of the year. No contract extension signals a lack of confidence in the current situation so I will do my best to support the program in any way I can. If I had the ability to post the picture of beating a dead horse here I would. Better luck today for all of our young athletes no matter what sport. Go Shocks

**Aargh** · February 23, 2019, 11:18 AM

For those still wondering if it was a financial issue in the athletic department that kept Butler around for this year, you can stop wondering. It was a financial issue in the athletic department that kept Butler here this year. Maybe Boatwright didn't want to fire him, but that's a moot point when you consider the financial aspects of moving to the AAC.

The athletic department borrowed the $2.5 mill entry fee to join the AAC. Then they looked at travel expenses. With the attitude in the athletic department (and above the athletic department) nobody on contract was getting fired until the financial impact of changing conferences was understood.

As I recall, the athletic department showed a $1 mill surplus for their first year in the AAC. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Boatwright's on the job performance, getting that surplus was no simple task, and Boatwright deserves some good marks for his job performance in that area.

Before Butler could be terminated, the athletic department had to prove they could raise the money to be able to do that. Step 1 was to show financial stability. I'm not patting Boatwright on the back, I'm just speculating that there was a process that had to be successfully implemented before the possibility of firing a contact coach could be considered and Boatwright successfully completed the first phase of the process.

**ShockerFever** · February 23, 2019, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by ShockTalk View Post

I think it's time we all understand that WSU's hiring of Butler is old history, over and done. It appears that fences have been mended between fHCGS and WSU and so should all SNrs regardless of their opinion of the decision to fire Gene or the hiring of Butler.

Butler's continued presence, however, is a current issue that is festering this board and most likely almost all fans of Shocker baseball. That is hurting the program as a whole.

The players are caught in the crossfire. They may not be as high of level as we'd like, but that is not their fault. It's Butler's. They may not be as fundamentally sound as we'd like. That, too, rests with Butler. Nevertheless, they are our players, wearing our colors, and we should support them even if it sounds counterintuitive. We need to try and watch what we say and how we say it. As long as they appear to play hard, they deserve that.

What I cannot put on Butler is the contract that WSU gave him. He would no more walk away from that contract than you or I. That is on the athletic department. I do not know any more than anyone else here if the cost of firing Butler in the past and hiring a new staff was/is a real financial issue or not. We can't demand something that may not be able to be given.

Hopefully, this will be resolved before to much more damaged is done to the program. My hope is that the writing is already on the wall and all parties know that and that the process of finding a new head coach is already in motion.

Meanwhile, I have who I consider SN friends gnawing on each other. I feel they are all good posters, valuable to this board, and strong Shocker supporters. Most all of us know what needs to happen to turn the program around, but it's not in our hands. What is in our control is US. Show some personal restraint in comments about the program that may seem directed at players and to each other. Pretty sure any regular to this board knows how another feels about the handling of the baseball program. It doesn't need to be repeated over and over again.

I appreciate your position to remain as neutral as possible and appease things around here. I really do. This is a message board though and all reasonable opinions should be tolerated and accepted or this wouldn't be a message board. Some people like to vent. Some people like calling things what they are. We are 1-4 and going nowhere fast. We fundamentally suck. Those are facts. You can't expect positivity and rainbows when we're going through situations and seasons like these. It's just not practicable. Shockernet is WAYYYYYY better than how a lot of other message boards go. It could be WAY worse.

I understand your message but we can't sugarcoat everything either.

**SB Shock** · February 23, 2019, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Downtown Shocker Brown View Post

A few facts:

ADDB didn't hire Todd Butler. Former ADES did.

From what I heard after DBU coached pulled out of his visit to WSU, ADDB pushed Butler. Regardless ADDB has had the opportunity to fix it and hasn't.

It has been 23 years since our last CWS. Not 6.[
It has been 11 years since our last Super Regional. Not 6.

True facts. The program was in decline well before Butler was hired on.

We are paying a Top 100 Salary. (Not getting those results)

Idk, where Butler contract rates right now, but in 2013 he was hired at 300,000 (he makes at least 340,000). The average salary for SEC coach was 465,000. Butler Contract is incentive laden ($168,000 worth of possible bonuses). So it would seem that it was at least competitive contract at the time (Gene payout I think for his final year was ~$560,000). Now, of course, I grant you SEC salaries have risen, but I think it would be a reasonable expectation that Butler would have to if he had any success.

Some CURRENT contracts of Baseball Coaches (Base / Other / Potential Bonus)

WSU (Todd Butler) 340,000 / ?? / 168,000

Missouri St (Guttin) 113,419 / ?? / ??

OSU (Josh Holiday) 200,000 / 550,000 / 21,000
Mizzou 210,000/115,000/130,200
OU (Skip Johnson) 215,000 / 170,000 / 156,500
NU (Erstad). 221,083 / 0 / 165,811
Clemson 225,000 / 225,000 / 240,000
KU 225,000 / 148,000 / 150,000
Tenn 235,000 / 225,000 / 90,200
Auburn 250,000 / 320,000 / 435,000
Miss St 250,000 / 0 / ??
WV 250,000 / 135,000 / 449,000
NC 263,900 / 50,000 / 131,952
AL 265,000 / 160,000 / 131,458
Arkansas 275,000 / 500,000 / 143,000
Georgia 300,000 / 300,000 / 0
KSU 315,000 / 125,000 / 158,300
ASU 325,000 / 70,000 / 97,500
Az 335,000 / 35,000
LSU 350,000 / 875,000 / 320,000

In 2015, the Houston coach got a bump of $50,000 to $300,000 to make him the highest paid AAC coach. Butler was making $320,000 at the time.

We have a Top 50 facility. (Not getting those results)
It takes money to compete. (See men's basketball)
Not spending money only makes it worse.

WSU has been spending that money, but they have not gotten anywhere the return on investment.

If you want to change, buy tickets. Get your money in there. Show up and purchase concessions. Talk to your work about Corporate Packages. It will take a lot to get back to where many seem to think we should be. The surefire way to not get there is not supporting the program. You can do this even if you don’t support the coach.

For the most part that has been what happened.

WSU Attendance

2008 - 12th
2012 - 12th
2015 - 23rd
2016 - 32nd
2017 - 30th

The fans have HOPED and expected the turn-around was near. But after a decade of this program underachieving, it looks like Baseball is dead at WSU. It will take someone pretty special to actually make it even a "good" program again.

**ShockerFever** · February 23, 2019, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Downtown Shocker Brown View Post

A few facts:

ADDB didnt hire Todd Butler. Former ADES did.
It has been 23 years since our last CWS. Not 6.
It has been 11 years since our last Super Regional. Not 6.
We are paying a Top 100 Salary. (Not getting those results)
We have a Top 50 facility. (Not getting those results)
It takes money to compete. (See mens basketball)
Not spending money only makes it worse.

If you want change, buy tickets. Get your money in there. Show up and purchase concessions. Talk to your work about Corporate Packages. It will take a lot to get back to where many seem to think we should be. The surefire way to not get there is not supporting the program. You can do this even if you don’t support the coach.

These "facts" are such BS excuses you're trying to implore.

Sexton gave the dumbass contract but Boatright hasn't corrected anything. Boatright is almost a Sexton clone. Not good.
Your CWS and super regional arguments are dumb. How come you didn't continue right on down to regionals? Because it killed your argument. You see how YOU can twist things? Not only have we not been in a regional in 6 years (since our former HOF coach was canned), we haven't SNIFFED regional appearances in those years. Nor conference championships, conference tourney championships, etc. So cut that BS.
A Top 100 salary? Really? You're telling me there are a 100 coaches in D1 baseball getting more than $300,000/year. Are there any FACTS to back up this statement? I'm pretty sure he's getting a Top 40 salary and we're getting 200+ level results.
It takes money to compete? What kinda money? Well, we're already dropping a buttload for what should be a top-notch coach (lol not even close). What else do we need that we don't already have? Got the facility. What else? It's hard to bring in money when the guy in charge is a perennial loser that has zero ties to the program.

Your last line may be the dumbest thought on the entire subject. The athletic department ONLY cares about money. That has been made evident regarding the basketball program, and now all of the other lesser programs as well. They care about nothing BUT money. If season tickets and attendance spiked back to Stephenson-type levels with 3-4k a game, then they'd extend Butler's ass quicker than you can say FACT. They would extend a loser coach. You know why? Because they'd be getting their money. And that's all that they care about. And then you'd have the notion that Shocker Nation has accepted mediocrity (or worse) and is content with losing baseball. LOL. That's not how sports economics work, buddy. The crowds don't come before the wins. That is the way it works EVERYWHERE. Expecting hoards of people to come piling in for losing baseball under a perennial loser coach is completely ass backwards. You invest money (yes you take risks) and you build the product up first. Then the people will come.

Did you really throw in the "purchase concessions" line? lol So I wouldn't be a WSU fan if I didn't pay the ridiculous price-gouged items from the concession stands? LOL. WSU would make more money if they charged reasonable prices for their fare. This isn't MLB lol. You can make money by being fair and conscience about your concessions. But to price gouge the **** out of the few people that still come to games? LOL. It's so GD backwards. I haven't purchased a concession item from a WSU stand in 10 years, ever since they went money-hungry. And I won't in the future. If that makes me a "KU fan", then so be it.

EDIT: Looks like they are putting some money into baseball here with Phase 5: Is this still not enough to be used as an excuse?

Article (also included is the ridiculous new outfield hill policy that I'm sure will turn away the last few remaining hill fans): https://goshockers.com/news/2019/2/2...x?path=tickets

**ShockerFever** · February 23, 2019, 12:00 PM

Thanks for the salary facts SB. Right on queue.

Looks like Top 40 may have been conservative with my salary estimates. His STARTING salary without winning a single game was better than what Van Horn at Arkansas makes? LOL. And just behind what DSB's coveted LSU program makes?

Top 100 salary? LMFAO. What an utter joke and complete horseshit. FACTS my ASS.

**1972Shocker** · February 23, 2019, 12:53 PM

Preston Snavely with the start the Shocks in the 1st game today. Ryan Stuempfig will not pitch this weekend.

**_kai_** · February 23, 2019, 01:42 PM

Conspiracy time: they don't allow outside booze in the outfield to drop attendance even further this year, use it as more ammo to fire Butler, then bring back outside booze next year.

**_kai_** · February 23, 2019, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Downtown Shocker Brown View Post

A few facts:

ADDB didnt hire Todd Butler. Former ADES did.
It has been 23 years since our last CWS. Not 6.
It has been 11 years since our last Super Regional. Not 6.
We are paying a Top 100 Salary. (Not getting those results)
We have a Top 50 facility. (Not getting those results)
It takes money to compete. (See mens basketball)
Not spending money only makes it worse.

If you want change, buy tickets. Get your money in there. Show up and purchase concessions. Talk to your work about Corporate Packages. It will take a lot to get back to where many seem to think we should be. The surefire way to not get there is not supporting the program. You can do this even if you don’t support the coach.

At this point thats putting the cart before the horse. So we need to spend more money to make it better? They've ran off all the fans with their bullcrap, their $8 for a water and a boiled hot dog, their no over 3.2 beer in the outfield with no notice bullcrap, their no outside beer in the outfield crap, their can't field grounders better than a JV highschool team bullcrap.

I had season tickets and me getting rid of them hasn't made this team BULLCRAP. Me getting tickets again isn't going to magically make it better.

It's beyond ludicrous to even write that last paragraph. Putting blame on the fans, you've got to be kidding me dude.

I say the opposite. Boycott this team. Boycott the university, boycott your charitable contribution to the academic side of the university. The money thrown at this program and the results we get on the diamond is PATHETIC. I've been behind Butler long enough. 1-4 to start the year. Here we go again. boycott, boycott, boycott.

**AndShock** · February 23, 2019, 04:11 PM

The facts that DTSB throws out makes me lean more towards ending the baseball program than supporting Todd Butler.

**ShockerFever** · February 23, 2019, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by AndShock View Post

The facts that DTSB throws out makes me lean more towards ending the baseball program than supporting Todd Butler.

LOL

**WichitaStateGuy** · February 23, 2019, 04:37 PM

All you self-righteous, “Butler isn’t THAT bad & please keep buying tickets to support the program,” can piss off. This is a business. The product sucks. I don’t shop at Sears with yester-year in my mind, hopeful for the future. I’m a consumer, and as long as the product is this bad, my dollars will be spent elsewhere. If Wichita State wants to get me EXCITED about the product- say by hiring a new coach (marketing)- then hey, I’ll take a chance and check out the product. But right now, there is nothing- ZERO- to be excited about.

I’m excited to be excited... I’m just not hopeful at this point. I’m a young father and husband that doesn’t have unlimited funds. WHY IN THE WORLD would I choose to spend my discretionary income on WSU baseball when I could go watch crap baseball for free Sunday after church in the rec-league? Honest to god, the majority of people don’t have the money to buy crappy products to keep the crappy product afloat.

**ShockerFever** · February 23, 2019, 04:38 PM

1-5. And I got scolded for questioning how this weekend "should" provide confidence for this team with easier opponents.

And predictable crickets from the TB Fan Club.

**1972Shocker** · February 23, 2019, 04:49 PM

Just as an aside the Shockers dropped to 1-5 on the season with a 5-2 loss to Texas-Arlington. Best they can do this weekend against less than impressive competition is to go 2-2.

So far this weekend my concerns over the Shockers ability to produce runs this year has cropped up. They have pitched okay but if they don't pitch great it may not matter.

Last year the Shocks were 18-4 heading into AAC play and IIRC we weren't exactly sure how real the Shocks were. We eventually found out. This year I think the non-con schedule is a bit tougher although not so tough that you would be 1-5 after 6 games.

Hopefully, this is the year we hit bottom but the question is can we recover and exactly what does recover look like in this day and age.

Whoever we do get to try to right the ship needs to be paid well but the need to be paid for performance and not be given more than 3, maybe 4, years to show meaningful progress.

**tru2thaduce** · February 23, 2019, 04:55 PM

Mike Steele leaving when he did,didn’t do this team any favors but at this point he looks like a genius bailing on this crap show of a coaching staff.

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