WSU vs. USF (Part 2) - AAC Tournament

[C0|dB|00ded]

What a disgusting feeling it is to hope for a Shocker team to fail hard so a proper flush can occur. It doesn't seem fair to the players but this had to happen. A new day is upon us gentlemen. There are two directions the program can go from here: either it will get a little worse, or a whole lot better. I'll take that risk:reward to the bank!


T


...:cool:

[ShockerFever]

A fitting whimper to go out on.

Defend it. Anybody. Defend it.

[BostonWu]

Improved record. Nice guy. That's what you'll hear.

[SHOCKvalue]

Only a very few grains of sand left in the top of the hourglass.

If I was a betting man, I’d say there’s either 1/6th or 2/7th of the sand sitting up at the top yet.

Notice I said betting man, not sentimental or hopeful man.

[ShockerFever]

Improved record. Nice guy. That's what you'll hear.

And that would be the lamest of lame.

Btw, nearly 70% of our wins are against teams with losing records.

[WSUwatcher]

Improved record. Nice guy. That's what you'll hear.

I'm actually even willing to give Butler a pass for the time he had Kemnitz imposed on him as pitching coach. Not because I have anything against Brent; I was a big fan of him as well as of Gene during the good old days. But just because that was a hopeless oil and water mix that created a bad environment for any kind of progress. Still, getting back to the present, there's simply no way to describe this year's team, improved record and all, as anything other than underachieving.

So when it comes to Butler as a head baseball coach, my impression of him is that he is exactly what Boston said: a nice guy. Quite possibly nicer than Gregg Marshall, even -- but I also know which one I'd want coaching a high profile sport in my athletic program.

[Play Angry]

It's funny, this year's team was actually a lot better than I expected - I understand if the end result wasn't enough, of course, but I don't really get how somebody had expectations above where we landed when looking at the immediately preceding seasons.

Disappointing finish? Sure. Improving ~100 spots in the RPI not being as good as expected for that season? Maybe if someone took a nap from 2015 - 2017.

[shox1989]

It's funny, this year's team was actually a lot better than I expected - I understand if the end result wasn't enough, of course, but I don't really get how somebody had expectations above where we landed when looking at the immediately preceding seasons.

Disappointing finish? Sure. Improving ~100 spots in the RPI not being as good as expected for that season? Maybe if someone took a nap from 2015 - 2017.

The 100 point improvement in the rpi is deceptive because we are ow playing in a conference where everyone has higher rips. The fact we pretty much lost every series to anybody who is anybody in this conference and that 70% of our wins came against teams with losing records, tells me a lot more.

[1972Shocker]

I calculate 63% (22/35) of our wins against teams with losing records although that doesn't invalidate the point.

[Play Angry]

I'm afraid you missed the point of my post.

Back in January, what would you have guessed our record would be this season?

It was not intended to say that this was an objectively fantastic season which seems to be what you're arguing against. The argument that this season's team underachieved implies high expectations - did people really have those after the prior 3 seasons?

[Cdizzle]

It's funny, this year's team was actually a lot better than I expected - I understand if the end result wasn't enough, of course, but I don't really get how somebody had expectations above where we landed when looking at the immediately preceding seasons.

Disappointing finish? Sure. Improving ~100 spots in the RPI not being as good as expected for that season? Maybe if someone took a nap from 2015 - 2017.

Kindof part of the point though, right? If a team is way better than expected in the 5th year of a program, and they still aren't a tournament team....we either really, really need to change expectations, or really, really need to change coaches. I don't want to change expectations.

I didn't think they would be better this year than they turned out to be. Which is why I was a proponent of making a move last year.

[Play Angry]

Kindof part of the point though, right? If a team is way better than expected in the 5th year of a program, and they still aren't a tournament team....we either really, really need to change expectations, or really, really need to change coaches. I don't want to change expectations.

I didn't think they would be better this year than they turned out to be. Which is why I was a proponent of making a move last year.

Yeah, the point isn't against making a move, it's pointing out that expecting a Top 30 team on the heels of 3 straight seasons of hovering around a buck fitty makes as much sense as expecting us to appear in the CWS finals next season even with a new coach.

I get that this is the dogpile moment but it doesn't mean unlimited stupid **** is correct so long as it ends with "Fire Butler, hoorah!"

[ShockerFever]

It's funny, this year's team was actually a lot better than I expected - I understand if the end result wasn't enough, of course, but I don't really get how somebody had expectations above where we landed when looking at the immediately preceding seasons.

Disappointing finish? Sure. Improving ~100 spots in the RPI not being as good as expected for that season? Maybe if someone took a nap from 2015 - 2017.

Conference record better than expected? Conference standing better than expected? 5 years = zero postseason berths, better than expected?

Am I missing something or have we lowered our expectations radically?

[Cdizzle]

Yeah, the point isn't against making a move, it's pointing out that expecting a Top 30 team on the heels of 3 straight seasons of hovering around a buck fitty makes as much sense as expecting us to appear in the CWS finals next season even with a new coach.

I get that this is the dogpile moment but it doesn't mean unlimited stupid **** is correct so long as it ends with "Fire Butler, hoorah!"

I guess I missed the unlimited stupid stuff you're referencing (at least in this thread).

The logic of several straight crappy teams not suddenly turning into a good team is obviously sound, I'm just not sure of its relevance here.

[shockfan89_]

I think we were better this year than I expected based on how terrible we were the past two years. Especially the first half of the season against mediocre competition. This is the kind of improvement I expected between year 2 and year 3. Not the kind of improvement I expected after 5 years, with two projected 1st round draft picks, JRs and SRs at every position who have started for 3 or 4 years, and a greatly improved pitching staff.

When everything aligns like that and you have a good RPI conference, you are expecting to be a Regional host and possibly a national seed, not finish in 7th or 8th in your confernce with a mid-50s RPI.

[Play Angry]

I guess I missed the unlimited stupid stuff you're referencing (at least in this thread).

The logic of several straight crappy teams not suddenly turning into a good team is obviously sound, I'm just not sure of its relevance here.

I guess i could have quoted it, but I figured it was clear my post was responding to the post immediately above it.

Fire Butler based on body of work? Yep, makes sense. Hasn't met program standards commensurate with salary? No doubt. Continued declining attendance and revenue? Sure.

2018 team underachieved, let's fire him? There's a ton of valid ways to argue for his dismissal and this might be the only way that doesn't make any sense. This is literally his only team that probably overachieved.

Sorta like saying ya support Mike Cohen's termination (you betcha) because he is a member of Hezbollah (wait what) and a cannibal (uhhhh). Not really but you get the point.

At the end of the day, if HCTB gets the boot then I'll be incredibly excited to support the next coach. It would be a blast to see some life pumped into the fan base and attendance get a lift. If he's retained for another season, I'll renew and will look forward to seeing if next year's team can follow through on this year's improvements to pitching and hitting - if that happens, even marginally, then we'll receive an at-large bid, which is the standard most have set for the program (myself included) and the trendline would be undeniably positive. If the follow-through isn't there, then the buyout would be at a level where budget concerns are no longer prohibitive, and a change would be made.

We'll know before this time next week IMO.

[BostonWu]

It's funny, this year's team was actually a lot better than I expected - I understand if the end result wasn't enough, of course, but I don't really get how somebody had expectations above where we landed when looking at the immediately preceding seasons.

Disappointing finish? Sure. Improving ~100 spots in the RPI not being as good as expected for that season? Maybe if someone took a nap from 2015 - 2017.

What's your expectations for season 6 under Butler?