MVC & Big 12 Budgets

[NCAABound]

I noticed on one of the other threads the discussion turned into finances and how much we expect Gene & Co. to accomplish on our limited budget. Below are the finances for baseball programs in the Big 12 and Missouri Valley (from 2009). I found this info at http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

Just for comparison and discussion sake. But it's probably been discussed before.

EDIT: See 1979's chart below for an easier to read version

                  Revenue       Operating Expenses      Total Expenses
Texas                  5,650,027          1,181,401                  3,732,260
Texas A&M           2,181,078             584,574                  2,173,561
Baylor                  1,896,785             607,977                 2,022,793
Wichita St             1,645,471             282,675                 1,645,471
Nebraska              1,293,104            411,423                  1,893,028
Oklahoma             1,142,378            811,156                  2,100,141
Creighton             1,073,033            235,986                   1,073,033
Bradley                  904,411             172,555                     904,411
Evansville               792,437             107,610                     792,437
Missouri St              773,168             116,340                     707,416
Illinois St                623,890             168,257                     623,890
Texas Tech             555,068             399,179                   1,561,171
Indiana St               511,079             183,075                     628,627
Kansas                    509,002             440,825                  1,555,211
Oklahoma St            238,040             282,019                  1,399,247
Southern Illinois       150,107             146,250                     801,766
Kansas St                133,828             387,504                  1,403,600
Missouri                    86,517              252,277                 1,188,113

I don't know how to get this stuff to line up!

Looks like we have a very competitive budget, even though most Big 12 teams get money from football. What goes into operating expenses vs. total expenses?

[ShockTalk]

So, if I understand this correctly, among all the Big 12 and MVC baseball teams:

1) WSU's program is the 4th largest revenue producing program.

2) Despite most Big 12 programs being subsidized (many by $1,000,000 or more), WSU still has the 6th largest amout of total expenditures, all paid by the baseball program.

3) WSU spends 50% more than any other MVC team and double the expenditure of all but 2 schools.

4) WSU spends more than 50% of the Big 12 teams.

From this, I see no reason that WSU doesn't dominate the Valley. Also, one of three things need to happen. If WSU's baseball budget is tied up in salaries and facilities to the determent of recruiting 1) the Athletic Dept needs to come up with $100,000 for recruiting to help this high profile program or 2) the coaching staff needs to earn their high paid keep and get out there and recruit better or 3) if the coaching staff won't, or can't get better recruits because of their "past", it time for a change so that funds can be placed for the betterment of the program first and not someone's pocket.

[SB Shock]

thanks for the info. Good facts - though it make the decline and fall of WSU baseball even more hard to swallow.

[1979Shocker]

Re: MVC & Big 12 Budgets

I don't know how to get this stuff to line up!

The easiest way to line them up in Notepad, then paste it in here and wrap with the code tags.

                     Revenue     Operating Expenses     Total Expenses
Texas               5,650,027       1,181,401              3,732,260
Texas A&M           2,181,078         584,574              2,173,561
Baylor              1,896,785         607,977              2,022,793
Wichita St          1,645,471         282,675              1,645,471
Nebraska            1,293,104         411,423              1,893,028
Oklahoma            1,142,378         811,156              2,100,141
Creighton           1,073,033         235,986              1,073,033
Bradley               904,411         172,555                904,411
Evansville            792,437         107,610                792,437
Missouri St           773,168         116,340                707,416
Illinois St           623,890         168,257                623,890
Texas Tech            555,068         399,179              1,561,171
Indiana St            511,079         183,075                628,627
Kansas                509,002         440,825              1,555,211
Oklahoma St           238,040         282,019              1,399,247
Southern Illinois     150,107         146,250                801,766
Kansas St             133,828         387,504              1,403,600
Missouri               86,517         252,277              1,188,113

[CharlieHog]

Where do you see baseball only revenue at that link? I'm missing it...

[NCAABound]

Where do you see baseball only revenue at that link? I'm missing it...

I went to "Download Selected Data" on the right side. You can select which schools/conferences, then the next page lets you select just a certain sport if you want.

It gives you an Excel spreadsheet that you'll probably have to do some reformatting to see everything clearly.

And Charlie, if you look at the SEC...you'll see a lot larger numbers than were posted here!

[shocker3]

I have re-sorted the numbers by revenue. I have also added ORU, Arkansas, Dallas Baptist and TCU to the mix.

The revenue numbers reflect our strong fan support, only the southern baseball powers in the region have higher numbers:
RANKED BY REVENUE NUMBERS:

Total Revenue:
Revenue
Texas $5,660,027.00
TCU $2,677,501.00
Arkansas $2,323,343.00
Texas A&M $2,181,078.00
Baylor $1,896,785.00
Wichita St $1,645,471.00
Nebraska $1,293,104.00
Oklahoma $1,142,378.00
O. R. U. $1,101,408.00
Creighton $1,073,033.00
Bradley $904,411.00
Dallas Bap $861,964.00
Evansville $792,437.00
Missouri St $773,168.00
Illinois St $623,890.00
Tex. Tech $555,068.00
Indiana St $511,079.00
Kansas $509,002.00
Okla. St $238,040.00
Sou. Ill. $150,107.00
Kansas St $133,828.00
Missouri $86,517.00


The numbers that surprised me the most are for schools like UE, Illinois St. and Indy State. Their revenue numbers can't all be from baseball, they don't draw squat to their games. They must be including some student fees or other institutional support in those numbers.

I am not surprised at how low SIU and Kstate rank in revenue. SIU doesn't even charge for games and Kstate draws mostly students who get in free .

[shocker3]

When you sort by Total Expenses we are behind the powers in the area but are slightly ahead of the lower and middle BCS teams. We pay our coaches salaries that are competitive with the baseball powers and it is reflected in our total expenses. Although we are still ahead of them in total expenses, Ku and Kstate are right on our heels (in spite of their total lack of revenue from baseball).
SORTED BY TOTAL EXPENSES:


Total Expenses
Texas $3,732,260.00
Arkansas $2,748,413.00
TCU $2,677,501.00
Texas A&M $2,173,561.00
Oklahoma $2,100,141.00
Baylor $2,022,793.00
Nebraska $1,893,028.00
Wichita St $1,645,471.00
Tex Tech $1,561,171.00
Kansas $1,555,211.00
Kansas St $1,403,600.00
Okla. St. $1,399,247.00
Missouri $1,188,113.00
Oral Rob $1,082,424.00
Creighton $1,073,033.00
Bradley $904,411.00
Dallas Bap $828,900.00
South. Ill. $801,766.00
Evansville $792,437.00
Missouri St $707,416.00
Indiana St. $628,627.00
Illinois St. $623,890.00

[shocker3]

When the numbers are resorted by Operating Expenses is when we drop behind most of the BCS schools as well as ORU (also TCU but they rank ahead of us in all categories).

In fact Ku and Kstate even move ahead of us. The operating budget is the area where we have always lagged behind the baseball powers and now we also lag behind the middle of the pack and even lower end BCS teams as well.

But we still stay ahead of all of the Vallley schools, which is no surprise considering the lack of baseball support seen in the Valley.

SORTED BY OPERATING EXPENSES:

Operating Expenses:
Texas $1,181,401.00
Arkansas $1,089,728.00
Oklahoma $811,156.00
TCU $800,219.00
Baylor $607,977.00
Texas A&M $584,574.00
Kansas $440,825.00
Nebraska $411,423.00
Tex. Tech $399,179.00
Kansas St $387,504.00
Oral Rober $319,553.00
Wichita St. $282,675.00
Okla. St. $282,019.00
Missouri $252,277.00
Creighton $235,986.00
Dallas Bap $212,870.00
Indiana St. $183,075.00
Bradley $172,555.00
Illinois St $168,257.00
South. Ill. $146,250.00
Missouri St $116,340.00
Evansville $107,610.00

[ShockTalk]

When the numbers are resorted by Operating Expenses is when we drop behind most of the BCS schools as well as ORU (also TCU but they rank ahead of us in all categories).

In fact Ku and Kstate even move ahead of us. The operating budget is the area where we have always lagged behind the baseball powers and now we also lag behind the middle of the pack and even lower end BCS teams as well.

But we still stay ahead of all of the Vallley schools, which is no surprise considering the lack of baseball support seen in the Valley.

SORTED BY OPERATING EXPENSES:

Revenue Operating Exp. Total Expenses
Texas 5660027 1181401 3732260
Arkansas 2323343 1089728 2748413
Oklahoma 1142378 811156 2100141
TCU 2677501 800219 2677501
Baylor 1896785 607977 2022793
Texas A&M 2181078 584574 2173561
Kansas 509002 440825 1555211
Nebraska 1293104 411423 1893028
Tex Tech 555068 399179 1561171
Kansas St 133828 387504 1403600
O R U 1101408 319553 1082424
Wichita St 1645471 282675 1645471
Okla St. 238040 282019 1399247
Missouri 86517 252277 1188113
Creighton 1073033 235986 1073033
Dallas Bap 861964 212870 828900
Indiana St 511079 183075 628627
Bradley 904411 172555 904411
Illinois St 623890 168257 623890
So. Illinois 150107 146250 801766
Missouri St 773168 116340 707416
Evansville 792437 107610 792437

So I'm clear on it, just what costs do you believe goes into "operating expenses" and what items are added into the balance of costs in "total expenses"?

[shocker3]

When the numbers are resorted by Operating Expenses is when we drop behind most of the BCS schools as well as ORU (also TCU but they rank ahead of us in all categories).

In fact Ku and Kstate even move ahead of us. The operating budget is the area where we have always lagged behind the baseball powers and now we also lag behind the middle of the pack and even lower end BCS teams as well.

But we still stay ahead of all of the Vallley schools, which is no surprise considering the lack of baseball support seen in the Valley.

SORTED BY OPERATING EXPENSES:

Revenue Operating Exp. Total Expenses
Texas 5660027 1181401 3732260
Arkansas 2323343 1089728 2748413
Oklahoma 1142378 811156 2100141
TCU 2677501 800219 2677501
Baylor 1896785 607977 2022793
Texas A&M 2181078 584574 2173561
Kansas 509002 440825 1555211
Nebraska 1293104 411423 1893028
Tex Tech 555068 399179 1561171
Kansas St 133828 387504 1403600
O R U 1101408 319553 1082424
Wichita St 1645471 282675 1645471
Okla St. 238040 282019 1399247
Missouri 86517 252277 1188113
Creighton 1073033 235986 1073033
Dallas Bap 861964 212870 828900
Indiana St 511079 183075 628627
Bradley 904411 172555 904411
Illinois St 623890 168257 623890
So. Illinois 150107 146250 801766
Missouri St 773168 116340 707416
Evansville 792437 107610 792437

So I'm clear on it, just what costs do you believe goes into "operating expenses" and what items are added into the balance of costs in "total expenses"?

Acutally I am not sure what this site (or if it is even consistent among the schools) includes in the operating budget numbers or even the total expenses category.

I would assume the total expenses category would include the coaches salaries while the operating could be everything else or it could be just the day to day operations and the game day expenses. It is hard to say.

I do know that over the years our baseball recruiting budget has been far behind the baseball powers and our operations budget has also lacked behind.

Our coaches salaries, on the other hand, have been competitive.

[NCAABound]

When the numbers are resorted by Operating Expenses is when we drop behind most of the BCS schools as well as ORU (also TCU but they rank ahead of us in all categories).

In fact Ku and Kstate even move ahead of us. The operating budget is the area where we have always lagged behind the baseball powers and now we also lag behind the middle of the pack and even lower end BCS teams as well.

But we still stay ahead of all of the Vallley schools, which is no surprise considering the lack of baseball support seen in the Valley.

SORTED BY OPERATING EXPENSES:

Revenue Operating Exp. Total Expenses
Texas 5660027 1181401 3732260
Arkansas 2323343 1089728 2748413
Oklahoma 1142378 811156 2100141
TCU 2677501 800219 2677501
Baylor 1896785 607977 2022793
Texas A&M 2181078 584574 2173561
Kansas 509002 440825 1555211
Nebraska 1293104 411423 1893028
Tex Tech 555068 399179 1561171
Kansas St 133828 387504 1403600
O R U 1101408 319553 1082424
Wichita St 1645471 282675 1645471
Okla St. 238040 282019 1399247
Missouri 86517 252277 1188113
Creighton 1073033 235986 1073033
Dallas Bap 861964 212870 828900
Indiana St 511079 183075 628627
Bradley 904411 172555 904411
Illinois St 623890 168257 623890
So. Illinois 150107 146250 801766
Missouri St 773168 116340 707416
Evansville 792437 107610 792437

So I'm clear on it, just what costs do you believe goes into "operating expenses" and what items are added into the balance of costs in "total expenses"?

Acutally I am not sure what this site (or if it is even consistent among the schools) includes in the operating budget numbers or even the total expenses category.

I would assume the total expenses category would include the coaches salaries while the operating could be everything else or it could be just the day to day operations and the game day expenses. It is hard to say.

I do know that over the years our baseball recruiting budget has been far behind the baseball powers and our operations budget has also lacked behind.

Our coaches salaries, on the other hand, have been competitive.

So does that mean we are overpaying our coaches if we are competitive in total expenses, but lag in operating expenses?

[ShockTalk]

When the numbers are resorted by Operating Expenses is when we drop behind most of the BCS schools as well as ORU (also TCU but they rank ahead of us in all categories).

In fact Ku and Kstate even move ahead of us. The operating budget is the area where we have always lagged behind the baseball powers and now we also lag behind the middle of the pack and even lower end BCS teams as well.

But we still stay ahead of all of the Vallley schools, which is no surprise considering the lack of baseball support seen in the Valley.

SORTED BY OPERATING EXPENSES:

Revenue Operating Exp. Total Expenses
Texas 5660027 1181401 3732260
Arkansas 2323343 1089728 2748413
Oklahoma 1142378 811156 2100141
TCU 2677501 800219 2677501
Baylor 1896785 607977 2022793
Texas A&M 2181078 584574 2173561
Kansas 509002 440825 1555211
Nebraska 1293104 411423 1893028
Tex Tech 555068 399179 1561171
Kansas St 133828 387504 1403600
O R U 1101408 319553 1082424
Wichita St 1645471 282675 1645471
Okla St. 238040 282019 1399247
Missouri 86517 252277 1188113
Creighton 1073033 235986 1073033
Dallas Bap 861964 212870 828900
Indiana St 511079 183075 628627
Bradley 904411 172555 904411
Illinois St 623890 168257 623890
So. Illinois 150107 146250 801766
Missouri St 773168 116340 707416
Evansville 792437 107610 792437

So I'm clear on it, just what costs do you believe goes into "operating expenses" and what items are added into the balance of costs in "total expenses"?

Acutally I am not sure what this site (or if it is even consistent among the schools) includes in the operating budget numbers or even the total expenses category.

I would assume the total expenses category would include the coaches salaries while the operating could be everything else or it could be just the day to day operations and the game day expenses. It is hard to say.

I do know that over the years our baseball recruiting budget has been far behind the baseball powers and our operations budget has also lacked behind.

Our coaches salaries, on the other hand, have been competitive.

The reason I asked was that I expected your answer. We just don't know how each school juggles it's numbers and what goes where. Therefore, I throw out the "operating expense" number because we don't know what it represents from school to school.

However, what we can be more certain of is the revenue and total expense numbers. WSU fairs quite well in both these numbers. So if we don't have the recruiting budget many of the similar "total expenses" schools here have, then that problem is on the program.

It does no good to have too much money tied up in facilities and/or salaries if the program cannot attract or afford to recruit the level of players that should be associated with a program that has that level of total expenditures. Furthermore, there is no way anyone can reason away, financially, why WSU's baseball program has declined in the Valley. From 1985-2000, WSU won the regular season championship every year but one. Over the last 10 years, with a weakening MVC, WSU has won only 5 times with two 3rd place finishes.

I'm very grateful and proud of what Gene has done for WSU baseball. He, more than anyone, should want that legacy to continue and do whatever needs to be done to see that it does continue. If not, then he has been consumed by other things. We can only hope that by the time changes are forced, that this proud program can still be viable.

[ABC]

I have always been very skeptical of the low recruiting budget talk from GS.

I've always thought the problem was low recruiting expenses b/c the coaching staff simply didn't travel much to recruit.

I have a very, very, very hard time believing that if Gene thought he needed more recruiting resources so coaches could travel to California, Texas, Florida and any other place with lots and lots of college baseball players, that he would get what he wanted.

[goshox24]

From this, I see no reason that WSU doesn't dominate the Valley. Also, one of three things need to happen. If WSU's baseball budget is tied up in salaries and facilities to the determent of recruiting 1) the Athletic Dept needs to come up with $100,000 for recruiting to help this high profile program or 2) the coaching staff needs to earn their high paid keep and get out there and recruit better or 3) if the coaching staff won't, or can't get better recruits because of their "past", it time for a change so that funds can be placed for the betterment of the program first and not someone's pocket.

I am pretty sure WSU does dominate the Valley. I understand it hasn't been a good year so far, but the Shocks dominate the conference like few others in college baseball. I don't have time to look up the years they have won it, but I think there are only 4 or 5 in the last 30 years that they haven't.

Obviously you are talking about this year, but I think they are still going to contend and probably win it again.