Jay Bilas Tweets

[ShockTalk]

Great discussion of a tough topic. However, I'm going to keep my points/questions short.

1) What kind of health/injury insurance does a college take out on it's athletes? Any at all? If yes, I would think coverage for an injury would continue until recovery or max limits are hit. If not, shouldn't the colleges be held responsible to see this happens?

2) Colleges should be required to continue scholarships (would not count against playing scholarships) to injured athletes that can no longer play due to the injury. Such student athletes would have up to 10 semesters minus already used semesters to use for their education at a time best suited for them if a delay is required due to injury.

3) Autographs are a very tricky subject. Such as, a friend of a recruited student athlete tells them that they heard that XYZ college fans really pay out big bucks for signatures, not just the stars, but the whole team. So, instead of paying a student athlete up front money to come, it gets laundered through autographs. How would you control it?

4) The NFL is not going to take kids right out of HS. It is too physical a game and their bodies are not ready for it. So, you have 2 alternatives. College football or a minor league system, maybe a combination. With a minor league system, the stars will get large signing bonuses, most players will not. Teams will still need to field full squads, so the drain of quality players would be huge to colleges. I'm guessing that players who get career ending injuries are, for the most part, probably thrown on the heap. No college what so ever, go fend for yourself for the most part.

[shockmonster]

This Manziel situation is oderous. Whatever anyone thinks about what he's done, it wouldn't have happened if he'd been under the guidance of Bill Snyder. The star system doesn't work for his teams and he won't change for anybody. There is the right way to do things and developing a star system may work for Calipari but its not best for the game. Sumler lost control and Texas A & M should be ashamed of him and Johnny. Sumler should have been warning him and his parents from day 1 and keeping him under wraps.

[Kung Wu]

Great discussion of a tough topic. However, I'm going to keep my points/questions short.

1) What kind of health/injury insurance does a college take out on it's athletes? Any at all? If yes, I would think coverage for an injury would continue until recovery or max limits are hit. If not, shouldn't the colleges be held responsible to see this happens?

The NCAA requires all student athletes to be insured. The insurance can be held by the player themselves, their parents, or the school. Whether the school holds the policy is up to the school, otherwise they can require that the player (or their family) has the policy. I doubt very many schools cover insurance for their athletes, but that's a pure guess.

[Rlh04d]

1) What kind of health/injury insurance does a college take out on it's athletes? Any at all? If yes, I would think coverage for an injury would continue until recovery or max limits are hit. If not, shouldn't the colleges be held responsible to see this happens?

Insurance is available for some injuries. I'd like to know what help is given to people that suffer from brain damage from severe concussions, though. There are a number of injuries that will be suffered in athletics that will last for a player's entire life, and they aren't covered by paying for an immediate surgery.

2) Colleges should be required to continue scholarships (would not count against playing scholarships) to injured athletes that can no longer play due to the injury. Such student athletes would have up to 10 semesters minus already used semesters to use for their education at a time best suited for them if a delay is required due to injury.

I'm assuming this is in regard to my point about FSU, the way that SubGod referenced it. FSU is maintaining the player's scholarship. The only reason he's being kicked off the team is for academic reasons. However, his academic issues came into being quickly after suffering from multiple concussions in his sophomore year. I've heard numerous accounts over the last year and a half that he's simply not the same person he was before his concussions, and the academic dismissal from the team is the latest problem. He still has a full ride to FSU, but it seems he no longer has the mental faculties to complete his degree. It has nothing to do with FSU dismissing him for injuries; hell, we're honoring a four year scholarship for a recruit that suffered a career ending injury, not just a player. In this case, he's simply not able to maintain his grades, which wasn't a problem until he suffered injuries to his brain. And that has nothing to do with the sports program.

It's a far trickier subject than that. Do we expect a university to give a degree to someone who cannot maintain his grades because of brain injuries he suffered while competing for that university athletically? I don't know if any university could justify giving a degree to someone who can't maintain grades; but at the same time, if it's due to brain trauma, it's not their fault that they can't maintain grades.

3) Autographs are a very tricky subject. Such as, a friend of a recruited student athlete tells them that they heard that XYZ college fans really pay out big bucks for signatures, not just the stars, but the whole team. So, instead of paying a student athlete up front money to come, it gets laundered through autographs. How would you control it?

I have no idea. There are no easy solutions to this.

But I think it's interesting that we're only worried about controlling things from the player's standpoint, while we don't even mention the utter lack of control over how much money the high level universities and bowls are making at their expense.

I don't really know how to make the system fair and avoid cheating. But what exists now is absolutely not fair.

4) The NFL is not going to take kids right out of HS. It is too physical a game and their bodies are not ready for it. So, you have 2 alternatives. College football or a minor league system, maybe a combination. With a minor league system, the stars will get large signing bonuses, most players will not. Teams will still need to field full squads, so the drain of quality players would be huge to colleges. I'm guessing that players who get career ending injuries are, for the most part, probably thrown on the heap. No college what so ever, go fend for yourself for the most part.

No, the NFL is not going to take kids right out of HS. And I'm not even saying they should. But let's stop the delusional comparison to other sports as if it's the same thing. It's not the same thing and we all know it.

I honestly have no idea what the solution to any of this is. I guarantee you no one here does -- there are far too many issues at play. But I think the entire system is broken. And it's not just college -- this is a systematic problem that goes through middle school, high school, AAUs in basketball, and college. There is massive, widespread commercial exploitation that occurs of "student" athletes at every level while failing to provide any real education to these players. How often do we see SEC football players dismissed for academic reasons? I'm not even sure what you have to do in the SEC to be dismissed anymore -- other than being a bench player that failed to live up to expectations when a roster spot is needed for a new recruit. We all laugh about the basket weaving classes high level athletes take, but the moment anything that would change the system we enjoy or benefit from is talked about, suddenly we're talking about this great educational opportunity we're providing them with. Which gets into the bigger argument of college -- are you going there to get a piece of paper or to actually learn something? Most of these universities are certainly providing athletes with the former, but they are absolutely not providing them with the latter.

All I know is that the system we have now is not right. And it's NOT about an education anymore. And anyone that thinks an education is adequate compensation for the rampant exploitation that is taking place at high level "amateur" athletics is lying to themselves.

I'm not even saying that paying players is the answer. But if the players aren't making money, there needs to be a LOT less money involved. If we're going to say college athletics is about an education, the money from colleges operating at this level need to be put back into academics. There needs to be a real effort made to make sure the schools are actually educating their players rather than churning out guys like Frank Gore who are clearly still illiterate -- but it's okay, because boy can he run with a football, so what's it matter if he gets a degree from a top 50 university in the country? The system is broken when the players have to be amateurs but every other aspect of high level college athletics is so blatantly capitalistic.

[Rlh04d]

Once you start allowing payers to get paid, either through the U or by selling themselves, things will get really shady and be the end of college sports as we know it.

I'm sure that same quote hasn't been made regarding nearly every change in the history of sports.

Did you know that letting baseball players become free agents would be the end of baseball as we know it? Integration? Players unions?

And I don't really care if a football player has to be out of HS for three years before they can move to the NFL, that's not the fault of college. That's the NFL rules. So if you think that's unfair, complain to the League. Baseball players have the same rules if they choose to go to college. So yes, they have more flexibility, but that's because those are the rules that MLB has in place. Basketball players have to stay one year, but that's due to the NBA and not the NCAA. And lets not kid ourselves, if a kid doesn't want to go to college he can play in Europe for a year and make some good money before joining the NBA.

You're creating a strawman argument. Where did I say it was the fault of the schools? I stated that trying to say it's the same circumstances across different sports is a lie, because the circumstances are VERY different.

All kids, no matter the sport, risk injury. Yes, football is a more high impact sport than others, but they also have battle armor that helps. A baseball player still risks arm and leg injuries that could ruin their future athletic careers and even potentially keep them from finishing school. Same with basketball.

So it's what -- just a misconception that football is more dangerous than other sports? Good thing they have that battle armor that keeps them safe. That must be why baseball and basketball have such a problem with severe brain damage. It's baseball that has players regularly dying in their 40s and 50s, right?

And if FSU dismissed a kid because of injury that reflects poorly on FSU and not the NCAA. If a kid is unable to play sports anymore due to injury, the school can still pay for his education as if he were a player without it counting against their scholarship limit. WSU did that with Zach Green early in the Turgeon years.

When did I say it reflects badly on the NCAA? And when did I say FSU was dismissing a kid because of injury? FSU is dismissing him because he failed to qualify academically for the fall semester, which means he can't play football in the fall semester. He's still on scholarship and can still earn his degree -- except for that whole "apparent traumatic brain injury" thing. There's nothing that FSU has done wrong in this scenario, and nothing that I wouldn't expect WSU to do under the exact same circumstances. I'm sure the player in question will be helped out as much as they can, but if he has suffered enough damage to his brain that he can't get a college education, what else can you do here?

And while schools may make millions off of the sports, they are the ones offering the opportunity for a debt free education and much of that money goes back into the opportunities and yes, even to educational purposes. As has been pointed out previously, not only do they get a debt free education, they're given opportunities that the general student body can only dream of. They're not abused or exploited and get so many perks that I find it laughable when I hear such things.

How many colleges put any money back into educational purposes from their athletic programs? Texas -- maybe Alabama? Meanwhile Alabama earned $124 million in revenue while contributing all of $8.8 million to actual tuition, and another $1 million to travel expenses.

It's about $12k a semester to go to school at Alabama -- not just for tuition, that's tuition, books, meals, lodging, etc. That's about $24k a year -- more if they're there over the summer. How much time do we want to assume a player is spending towards maintaining his scholarship for the year -- games, practices, travel, gym time, etc., etc., etc.? Even if that's only 20 hours a week on average, and that's a laughable understatement, that's about $23 an hour. I guess that'd be good money if you don't point out that Nick Saban made $5.6 million last year, or $15,300 a day.

I find it laughable when I hear people trying to explain all these wonderful things that players are supposedly getting out of college. I bet Frank Gore sure is glad he got that diploma from Miami! I mean, he can't actually READ his own diploma, but at least he has it!

As for your point about the general student body, show me how many members of the general student body can be directly responsible for a university making $50 million in a year in exchange for their tuition and I'll show you some more people that are being exploited.

Hell, I've had to go back to school to finish my education. Had I not gotten ill in HS and been able to get a scholarship somewhere, I'd be a hell of a lot better off as I would have finished school at a much younger age. As it is, my debt will be ridiculous and there are no guarantees that my degree will actually do much to help me. It's a risk I'm taking.

I don't see how your debt is relevant to this discussion. I don't know your situation, but I'm sure you could have made a few different decisions here that would have put you in a better situation.

I've got a number of degrees. I'm finishing my fifth one right now, actually. Some of those I've gotten through scholarships, some through going heavily in debt, some through having the military pay for them, which was a major reason I chose to join. All of them I got while working anywhere between 30 and 60 hours a week.

The difference is you and I go to college for an education. We go to get a degree that will help us get a job. High level college athletes aren't there for a diploma; they're there because it's the most effective way to get into a professional sports league, and sometimes the only way. It's not about the education. Who cares if you're not paying for the degree that you won't be using anyway? That's like if you went to work tomorrow and you were paid in tampons; maybe that's useful compensation to someone, but probably not you.

complaining about someone making money doesn't make any sense.

Seriously?

If anything is going to lead to the ruin of college athletics, it's this topic and people deciding that the kids should be paid. If things really go that direction, I'm definitely giving up sports as a whole.

Well, as long as you're still watching, that's all that matters.

[SubGod22]

So you do have issues with people making money? That's all I need to know.

[ShockTalk]

First, I'm not a big football fan. So, it's a little more difficult for me to be passionate about how college football goes forward, except for how any changes may affect all other college sports. When I was in HS, my baseball coach had me run wind sprints against the kid that was the city league's leading rusher. We were built similar (he was bigger) and had equivalent speed. I was asked how come I didn't go out for football. I don't remember my answer, but I had no desire to play the roll of a fantasy warrior. For me as a 16, 17 year old, the game was not worth the possible (probable) consequences of injury.

I made a choice. So, please excuse me if have limited compassion for football players and their injuries. People who smoke and later wanted to sue the tobacco industry were stupid to think inhaling smoke is not harmful. Individuals who wanted to play football and in later years have all these repercussions due to banging and slamming into each other had to know there were risks or just had blind passion.

We all make choices. As a kid, I saw thrown baseballs knocking kids/adults down when hit in the head, bad bounces hitting you in the face (me included), but I knew the risks and felt they were acceptable for me, especially compared to football. So my viewpoint on college/professional football is that the players, or parents of players, know the risks they are taking. Some will come out OK, others, like the FSU player, not well at all.

All that said, football is HUGE money and the sports teams and university know it, just as they know the risks players are taking. I believe the cost of those risks, particularly in the big time arenas, need to be shared by those profiting since they are willing to dangle the carrot. The individual college player should not be required to pay for insurance, the school should and it needs to be quality coverage. This would be one way of "paying" the player. The school should also have responsibilities for helping financially in severe cases, even if somewhat limited (shared risk). Giving a degree to someone who can't earn it due to injury is silliness. What's bad is giving out degrees that may not be earned and has nothing to do with an injury.

Getting a good/quality education starts at home, then in kindergarten. If you are worrying about student athletes getting a quality education, it starts long before they reach playing sports at a college. I have no doubt that the SEC, and others, are doing more damage control of what has been dropped in their laps than real education when it comes to some students that have passed/qualified through HS.

Let's not forget society's roll in all this. It's hunger for big time sports, throwing around big money like loose change to coaches, just like many here say regarding HCGM: "Just pay the man, pay what it takes to keep him here". For kids, sports is Stardom!! There was a time when professional baseball players, even like Stan Musial, had winter jobs. Now minimum scale in MLB's big show is around $500,000 a year. There was a time when, not only kids, but adults played sports, even on the professional level, for their love of the game and they made that choice.

They can still make that choice. They do not have to play if they don't like the system. I'm not condoning the current system and I believe many positive changes can and should be made. I'm not opposed to small stipends. However, perhaps all profits taken in by colleges and the NCAA due to any player likeness should go into a special fund for the disadvantaged, to set up special non-athletic scholarships. If player wants to do a signing, he would donate those funds just like the college is donating. If he wants to get paid, Show Me the Money, he can go elsewhere.

[Rlh04d]

So you do have issues with people making money? That's all I need to know.

So I figured just putting "seriously" would be enough to get you to understand the hypocrisy of this statement the first time you made it.

Everything you're responding with here is about how players shouldn't be paid. Your entire argument is an issue "with people making money." You seriously want to turn the discussion into which of us has a problem with capitalism?

I don't have a problem with anyone making money. You clearly do, though.

[Rlh04d]

I made a choice. So, please excuse me if have limited compassion for football players and their injuries. People who smoke and later wanted to sue the tobacco industry were stupid to think inhaling smoke is not harmful. Individuals who wanted to play football and in later years have all these repercussions due to banging and slamming into each other had to know there were risks or just had blind passion. We all make choices. As a kid, I saw thrown baseballs knocking kids/adults down when hit in the head, bad bounces hitting you in the face (me included), but I knew the risks and felt they were acceptable for me, especially compared to football. So my viewpoint on college/professional football is that the players, or parents of players, know the risks they are taking. Some will come out OK, others, like the FSU player, not well at all.

I'm not dismissing the fact that they made choices. Obviously there is no way to argue that they shouldn't have any personal accountability for their choices. But it also isn't acceptable to state that, like you mentioned, those willing to "dangle the carrot" to make those choices shouldn't have any accountability, either. I know that's not what you're stating here, but others are. If I go into a poverty stricken area and I start offering money for people to fight to the death, they might be making the choice to participate, but I'm carrying a ton of responsibility for it as well. You can't just gloss over my role as the employer just because it was their "choice" to participate. Obviously that's an extreme example, but I also don't think tobacco is a good comparison. Tobacco isn't an employer, and isn't offering any beneficial outcome to its users, or at least anymore than fast food or alcohol.

All that said, football is HUGE money and the sports teams and university know it, just as they know the risks players are taking. I believe the cost of those risks, particularly in the big time arenas, need to be shared by those profiting since they are willing to dangle the carrot. The individual college player should not be required to pay for insurance, the school should and it needs to be quality coverage. This would be one way of "paying" the player. The school should also have responsibilities for helping financially in severe cases, even if somewhat limited (shared risk). Giving a degree to someone who can't earn it due to injury is silliness. What's bad is giving out degrees that may not be earned and has nothing to do with an injury.

Absolutely agree with that.

Personal accountability on the people choosing to participate in the system means they have to take responsibility for the risks they've agreed to. But the risk needs to be on both sides. It can't all be on the players and the employers have no accountability whatsoever.

Getting a good/quality education starts at home, then in kindergarten. If you are worrying about student athletes getting a quality education, it starts long before they reach playing sports at a college. I have no doubt that the SEC, and others, are doing more damage control of what has been dropped in their laps than real education when it comes to some students that have passed/qualified through HS.

Oh, no doubt the problem starts from the beginning. However, a university is a center of learning, and when they are recruiting kids that they know are illiterate -- it might not be their fault that the player is illiterate, but it IS their fault that they're giving them a scholarship to a university. They know the academic ability of these kids when they recruit them. They purposely recruit kids that cannot compete academically in a university setting strictly because of their own desire to win in athletics. In doing so, they are sacrificing their integrity as schools of higher learning, and effectively compensating these players with nothing more than on the job training, because they know full well that their diplomas will be worthless.

A university doesn't have to damage control. They don't have to give someone a scholarship just because they can run fast. A lot of schools clearly are ignoring ALL academic standards in order to win in athletics. They're not just being "dropped in their laps," they are actively recruiting these guys knowing full well what their intellectual capabilities are. They know if their high schools are fudging their transcripts to get them to that next level. They're not victims here, nor are they when they continually keep people academically eligible even if they never go to classes or take a single legitimate class. Those kids can go play in the CFL for a few years or a JUCO before declaring for the NFL draft -- they shouldn't be in major universities.

Let's not forget society's roll in all this. It's hunger for big time sports, throwing around big money like loose change to coaches, just like many here say regarding HCGM: "Just pay the man, pay what it takes to keep him here". For kids, sports is Stardom!! There was a time when professional baseball players, even like Stan Musial, had winter jobs. Now minimum scale in MLB's big show is around $500,000 a year. There was a time when, not only kids, but adults played sports, even on the professional level, for their love of the game and they made that choice.

It's definitely a social issue. And, like I've said, I have no idea how to fix it.

I have no problem with the pay scale in professional sports, though -- there was also a time when the owners of professional sports teams pocketed the vast majority of profits a team earned. One could easily argue that the system is far more fair now by giving the people actually playing the game their fair share of the money earned. Obviously there's the love of the game/love of money argument that will always hurt the purity of sports these days, but the previous system wasn't very fair, either. But, on a bigger level, there is a social issue with how much we've collectively decided athletics is worth relative to other professions.

They can still make that choice. They do not have to play if they don't like the system. I'm not condoning the current system and I believe many positive changes can and should be made. I'm not opposed to small stipends. However, perhaps all profits taken in by colleges and the NCAA due to any player likeness should go into a special fund for the disadvantaged, to set up special non-athletic scholarships. If player wants to do a signing, he would donate those funds just like the college is donating. If he wants to get paid, Show Me the Money, he can go elsewhere.

I'd be perfectly fine with that. Like I said, this doesn't have to result in paying players. But other things should happen in that case: Like you said, money made by use of player likenesses need to go back into other facets that benefit players. A certain significant percentage of profits (above operating costs, not above whatever space station Alabama is planning to create to lure in recruits next) need to be put back into academics. Academic standards for players need to be controlled more strictly so that compensation with an education actually means something. Disciplinary measures should be controlled by an effective and competent governing body, not left up to individual coaches or "player votes." Coaching salaries need to be more controlled. If BCS bowls are going to be "non-profit" organizations, then their budgets and revenue need to be TIGHTLY controlled, with money being put back into education. Everything about the NCAA needs to take a step back from being a quasi-professional league and into being about education.

You can't run a professional league under the claim of being amateur and not pay the laborers. You can't make it clear that every aspect of the system is about making money and screw an education, but the moment money becomes an issue respond with "But they're getting an education!" Either it's about money or it's about an education. If it's just about money, pay the players. If it's about an education, stop paying everyone else so much and make the education aspect mean something.

[SubGod22]

So I figured just putting "seriously" would be enough to get you to understand the hypocrisy of this statement the first time you made it.

Everything you're responding with here is about how players shouldn't be paid. Your entire argument is an issue "with people making money." You seriously want to turn the discussion into which of us has a problem with capitalism?

I don't have a problem with anyone making money. You clearly do, though.

Coaches are professionals. Student-athletes are amateurs. If they want to get paid, they shouldn't be in school. There's no hypocrisy there. It's what they've signed up for. It's what they've agreed to. And they're already getting thousands by way of scholarships and everything else that goes with being a college athlete. If you want to turn college into another form of minor league sports, just say it.

[Rlh04d]

Coaches are professionals. Student-athletes are amateurs. If they want to get paid, they shouldn't be in school. There's no hypocrisy there. It's what they've signed up for. It's what they've agreed to. And they're already getting thousands by way of scholarships and everything else that goes with being a college athlete. If you want to turn college into another form of minor league sports, just say it.

So you do have issues with people making money? That's all I need to know.

[SubGod22]

You're comprehension skills suck balls. That's all I need to know. You're no longer worth talking about this with.

[Rlh04d]

You're comprehension skills suck balls. That's all I need to know. You're no longer worth talking about this with.

Funny, coming from the guy that regularly mis-read my points, completely lost track of everything I said about the FSU situation even when I provided you with a link to the actual story, and was so depressingly slow on the uptake when I tried to help you with the incredibly hypocritical statement you made that I had to explain it slowly for you to actually understand what you were saying.

You haven't been worth talking about with this at any point, but I still tried.

Your inability to have an intelligent, rational discussion without degenerating into personal attacks says all I need to know about you. Generally, adults can disagree about a topic without storming off like children. But bye now.

[Dan]

Back to the topic of signing autographs. So basically, Johnny or any other college athlete can not sell their autograph on e-bay. However, they can give an autographed picture to their roommate or best firend who can turn around and sell it on e-bay. That makes sense.

[_kai_]

Back to the topic of signing autographs. So basically, Johnny or any other college athlete can not sell their autograph on e-bay. However, they can give an autographed picture to their roommate or best firend who can turn around and sell it on e-bay. That makes sense.

Or sign one, and have the school sell it at an auction.