Planned Parenthood Leader Resigns After Watching Abortion

[WuDrWu]

Obviously there are different gustation periods, and maturation rates of fetus' for me to give you a day is stupid.

Then your admitting you really don't know. And if you don't know - then you have to admit you maybe supporting "legalized murder".

The Bible tells us that God is always right and man is almost always wrong. When we rely upon human consensus we will end up with man’s perspective and not God’s revelation. This is a dangerous situation that has the potential to lead people astray.

In this situation there are people being led astray who think they can somehow rationalize killing baby'sby changing the term "baby" to "fetus".

Jeremiah 1:5 says that God knew us before we were formed in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes death to those who kill babies in the womb. I hope (and pray) that more people of this nation will respect life and turn away from abortion, I believe there will be consequences not only for individuals but for our nation. If our nation does not repent and change, we will face God's judgment.

And for individuals - every head and knee shall bow. There will be judgment for those who choose not to change (repent). Being that said, abortion is not an unforgivable sin and like any sin can all be forgiven by our faith and living in grace through Jesus Christ.

y opinion is pretty set, just as yours is, and that is a good thing. They both mean about the same in the grand scheme of things.

Your right no man will change your mind, but God can do a work in your heart to change you. That would be my prayer for you.

Excellent post and thoughts sb.

RCWS, the bottom line is there just isn't a valid reason to support abortion. You can kind of make a non-religious/lesser of 2 evils argument in the extreme cases of incest and rape and when the mother's life is in danger (which are EXTRAORDINARILY rare). Ending a life, for convenience or want, is plain and simple wrong. I know, you know it. You may be able to "sanitize" your thoughts by saying it's ok if the fetus (generally defined as week 8 to birth) isn't viable....again as others have said isn't valid because a 1 month old can't fend for itself.

It is wrong, it was wrong, it will be wrong.....no man made law can change that. Man thinking he is above the laws of nature are an example of what is wrong in our society right now. We should be able to be better people.

We continue to govern with a least common denominator mentality and it is bankrupting us as a people financially, morally and spiritually.

May God have mercy on these children.....I fear that He will not be as lenient on our society.

[RockChalkWUShock]

SBshock Wrote:

Jeremiah 1:5 says that God knew us before we were formed in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes death to those who kill babies in the womb. I hope (and pray) that more people of this nation will respect life and turn away from abortion, I believe there will be consequences not only for individuals but for our nation. If our nation does not repent and change, we will face God's judgment.

Here is Exodus 21:22-25 verbatum from the NIV Life Application Study Bible.

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the womans husband demands and the court allows but if there is serious injury you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Please tell me where you see an abortion taking place in those verses. Please tell me where it is implicit that a baby was murdered, by a physician and a complicit mother. It just isn't there.

Also these are rules given to the Israelites by God, before he gave us the new covenant of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

Hebrews 9:15 states "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may recieve the promised eternal inheritance - now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

Christ was a sociopolictical revolutionary who stood against those that tried to mix religion and politcs. He spent most of his adult life teaching the personal salvation offered by his brand of worshiping God rather than the pharisees ways of legislating Gods law and forcing people to follow it by penalty of punishment. Christ calls us to a higher morality personally, Let YOUR life be an example to those that do not know him. We are called to live as Jesus lived, show compassion, lead by example. To Love those that are hardest to love.

I am pro-choice because I am no better than the woman who has had an abortion, my sin is equal her's or the doctor's in God's eyes. That decision is his or her cross to bear, and if asked by one or the other my opinion I am called to offer compassion and love, an open heart, and helping hand. I can only try to live my life the way Jesus lived his, and legislating morality isn't it.

SB- you can pray that God can do a work in my heart, and I will pray that he will do a work in yours.

[ISASO]

Killing human life, whether in the womb or outside it, is murder. God didn't tack on any carefully word-smithed legal clauses when he stated "Thou shalt not kill."

[SB Shock]

Please tell me where you see an abortion taking place in those verses. Please tell me where it is implicit that a baby was murdered, by a physician and a complicit mother. It just isn't there.

Isaso answered your question. Your rational is what I would expect from the Pharisees - the bible doesn't explicitly say and forbid "abortion" it so it must be alright. It is matter of the heart.

Also these are rules given to the Israelites by God, before he gave us the new covenant of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets. He came to fullfill them. The new convenant you talk about was prophised in Jeremiah.

The law is there to demonstrate that you cannot be saved by "works" but it is only through God's grace and propitiation of his Son on the cross that we can be saved. We are saved because Jesus bore our sins on the cross and took all of God's wrath so we would not have to face God wrath. In Isaiah 53 -"Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him"

We are called to repent from our sins (continually) and to believe.

I am pro-choice because I am no better than the woman who has had an abortion, my sin is equal her's or the doctor's in God's eyes.

Well, if that is your rationale then you must also be pro-choice towards murder - right? If somebody wants to kill somebody then that is their cross to bear - right? Somebody else murder is no worse than your sins right?

The fact is Jesus started his ministry with "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". Even after he prevented the stoning of the women accused of adultery he told her to leave her life of sin.

The fact is man greatest works are filthy rags to the Lord and man never can lead another man from the pit of hell.

We are called to not Judge others (because Judgment is God and God alone), but we called to not practice lawlessness. God tells us to examine ourselves, test ourselves with scripture to see if your in faith. I submit to you if you test "pro-choice" against scripture you can not say that is something God would condone.

"Matt 7:13-23"

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 "Not everyone who says to Me,'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'




Pastor Paul Washer spoke to a youth group in the following video on this scripture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ

[shocklight]

SBshock Wrote:

Jeremiah 1:5 says that God knew us before we were formed in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes death to those who kill babies in the womb. I hope (and pray) that more people of this nation will respect life and turn away from abortion, I believe there will be consequences not only for individuals but for our nation. If our nation does not repent and change, we will face God's judgment.

Here is Exodus 21:22-25 verbatum from the NIV Life Application Study Bible.

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the womans husband demands and the court allows but if there is serious injury you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Please tell me where you see an abortion taking place in those verses. Please tell me where it is implicit that a baby was murdered, by a physician and a complicit mother. It just isn't there.

Also these are rules given to the Israelites by God, before he gave us the new covenant of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

Hebrews 9:15 states "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may recieve the promised eternal inheritance - now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

Christ was a sociopolictical revolutionary who stood against those that tried to mix religion and politcs. He spent most of his adult life teaching the personal salvation offered by his brand of worshiping God rather than the pharisees ways of legislating Gods law and forcing people to follow it by penalty of punishment. Christ calls us to a higher morality personally, Let YOUR life be an example to those that do not know him. We are called to live as Jesus lived, show compassion, lead by example. To Love those that are hardest to love.

I am pro-choice because I am no better than the woman who has had an abortion, my sin is equal her's or the doctor's in God's eyes. That decision is his or her cross to bear, and if asked by one or the other my opinion I am called to offer compassion and love, an open heart, and helping hand. I can only try to live my life the way Jesus lived his, and legislating morality isn't it.

SB- you can pray that God can do a work in my heart, and I will pray that he will do a work in yours.

Based on your logic, then Rove vs Wade was wrong. There was not legal abortions up until that point. We must correct the ugly ways we started in the 1970's.

[RockChalkWUShock]

SB Shock wrote:
“Isaso answered your question. Your rational is what I would expect from the Pharisees - the bible doesn't explicitly say and forbid "abortion" it so it must be alright. It is matter of the heart.”

Not only does it not say or forbid abortions, by acts of God committed through the Israelites he condoned them.

2 Kings 15:16 - At the time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women.

God is using the Israelites to take his vengeance upon the Midianites.

Numbers 31:17 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man.

How can we tell if a woman has slept with a man..she is pregnant. Those are only two of many instances where God has killed, or used his people to kill, those two involve the unborn. In fact it was standard practice to kill all of your foes and take nothing for yourself. There are over 2,000,000 documentable people killed by God or by the hands of those that are doing Gods work. This doesn’t take into account the great flood, or God’s killing of the Egyptian first born, or the plagues that he rained down upon them.

Now the standard answer is well those were OK because God said so, but. God didn’t say so to the entire of the Israelite tribes, he said so only to a select one, Moses. The Israelites had to take it on faith from a man that what they were doing was the will of God. To take it a step further we don’t even know if it was God’s will, because the victor’s wrote the story. I am sure if there were surviving Midianites, they would see the entire thing differently.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SB Shock Wrote:
“Well, if that is our rationale then you must also be pro-choice towards murder - right? If somebody wants to kill somebody then that is their cross to bear - right? Somebody else’s murder is no worse than your sins right?”

Yes, you are right. In man’s eyes, murder is worse than stealing candy (man’s laws) but in God’s eyes it is the same sin because it just that, sin.

James 2:10- For whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
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SB Shock Wrote:
“The fact that Jesus started his ministry with “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Even after he prevented the stoning of the woman accused of adultery he told her to leave her life of sin.”

You have picked a perfect example of how Jesus represents the new law. Except you left out the beginning portion. Let me paraphrase the beginning of John 8 . Jesus goes to the court to teach the Pharisees, they bring out an adulterous woman. Hoping to trap him, they state v5 “In the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”

John 8:7 - When they kept questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

One by one they left only until Jesus was left, with the woman.
John 8:10-11 - Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman where are they? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

What a perfect example of compassion and love Jesus showed to this woman, loving those that are hardest to love. Showing to the Pharisees that they are no better than the adulterous woman. Jesus did tell the woman to go forth and sin no more, but he also didn’t spend the rest of his life following her around and making sure she did what he said. He met her where she was at in life, and gave her guidance. So should we treat those that are evil doers, and law breakers, those that should be stoned.
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SB Shock wrote:
“We are called to not judge others (because judgement is God and God alone), but we are called to not practice lawlessness. God calls us to examine ourselves, test ourselves with scripture to see if you are in faith. I submit to you if you test “pro-choice” against scripture you can not say that is something God would condone.”

This is where our faith has led us to different conclusions. My faith tells me that I am to imitate to the best of my abilities the life of Christ. My God is a God of choice. He has given me the choice to love him. He has given me the choice to sin, and so on. My God is Love. What is Love?

1 Corinthians 13:4-5 - Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

1 Corinthians 13:2-3 - If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

I believe that we are to dislike the sin, and love the sinner, as Christ would love them. I am called to let my life be an example, not to make sure that others are an example. Just as God gives me a choice, I should give them a choice also.

[SB Shock]

Not only does it not say or forbid abortions, by acts of God committed through the Israelites he condoned them.

2 Kings 15:16 - At the time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women.

God is using the Israelites to take his vengeance upon the Midianites.

1 and 2 Kings describes the history of Israels monarchy and for the most part the evil they did that would eventually lead to the Jews exile. The verse u just quoted demonstrates Menahem own barbarous excesses. God is not condoning Menahem actions, but Menahem reign was summed up by verse 18

"He did evil in the sight of the lord"

Numbers 31:17 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man.

How can we tell if a woman has slept with a man..she is pregnant. Those are only two of many instances where God has killed, or used his people to kill, those two involve the unborn.

Next I suppose your going to say that Noah and the "Flood" was another example of God condoning abortion. Paul Washer spoke in the video about people like you - beware of false prophets.

Amazing you did......

Yes, you are right. In man’s eyes, murder is worse than stealing candy (man’s laws) but in God’s eyes it is the same sin because it just that, sin.

I'm still waiting for the answer - do you condone murder, as you condone abortion?

You have picked a perfect example of how Jesus represents the new law.

Your doctrine is flawed. Jesus never said he represented the "new law". He in fact said "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."


Furthermore Jesus said "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teach other to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

What Jesus did was point out that it comes down to the "state of the heart". You can obey the "law" but still sin because of your "heart" condition.

There is a balance that must be maintained. The law without works is legalism, works without the law is "humanism"

What a perfect example of compassion and love Jesus showed to this woman, loving those that are hardest to love. Showing to the Pharisees that they are no better than the adulterous woman. Jesus did tell the woman to go forth and sin no more, but he also didn’t spend the rest of his life following her around and making sure she did what he said.

Of course he didn't. Jesus was God. Does Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient mean anything to you? He already knew whether she was going to repent or not repent - why would he follower her around. Bottom line is Jesus did not condone her sin.

He met her where she was at in life, and gave her guidance. So should we treat those that are evil doers, and law breakers, those that should be stoned.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

"And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God." Luke 16:15

This is where our faith has led us to different conclusions. My faith tells me that I am to imitate to the best of my abilities the life of Christ.

Of course we should submit ourselves to the Lord and ask him to change us, and for God to do a work in our life. We should be striving to be more like Christ. In fact we are told to test ourselves. I

My God is a God of choice. He has given me the choice to love him. He has given me the choice to sin, and so on. My God is Love. What is Love?

You still have not answered the question - is God pro-choice? Does he condone people using abortion as birth control? To use abortion to try and get around the consequence of their sins of adultery and fornication because they do not want to obey God? Does God value life?

I believe that we are to dislike the sin, and love the sinner, as Christ would love them.

Well, God hates sin. The next time the "world" see Jesus it will be in judgment. This is a perfect example of why the Gospel has no power in this nation.

I am called to let my life be an example, not to make sure that others are an example.

A little full of yourself. You or my works will never be an example for those to look up to- there is only one and that is Jesus example. That is why non-Christians despise Christians because they look at the Christians example and they find them hypocritical and no different than the world - they sinning at the same rate as the rest of the world. There is no fear of God, Christians are more and more willing to not stand for morality.

That is why Muslims look at Christians in disdain and say "you think you can just sin all the time and you will be forgiven".

Just as God gives me a choice, I should give them a choice also.

God has give you a choice to either choose eternal life in either hell or heaven. He did not give you the option to accept or condone sin. God hated sin so much that he put his own son on the cross.

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 1 John 2:4

[ISASO]

In summary, one simple question stands out from all the debate about what is crystal clear.

Is God pro-choice or pro-life?

How fascinating it might be to run a poll with this very simple question. Maybe there could even be a third option - the "I don't know" option. That would add a whole new level of intrigue.

[shocklight]

God is pro-life, you can twist it anyway you would like to. God gives life and only God can take it away. Man has decided it can kill the unborn if they so choose. Next is end of life issues. In either case, some men want to interfere with the process of life , that God own's.

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 1 John 2:4

How sad is it that some choose not to respect this process?

[RockChalkWUShock]

ISASO wrote:

In summary, one simple question stands out from all the debate about what is crystal clear.

Is God pro-choice or pro-life?

I am not sure if this is directed at me or the group in general. I will answer.

God is pro-choice.

I think part of what has been lost in my disscussions with SB is that, IMO, being pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion. I don't condone abortions, in fact I am greatly saddened by the act. I believe that God wants people to make their own choices, and live with them. That includes choosing to sin. As SB points out God is the judge, not us.

As far as putting it to a poll. I think we all know what the general consensus of this board is. I am in the minority, I might be the only vote in that category. The great part is I am willing to be wrong, and if my feelings on this subject exclude me from heaven based on Gods judgement, I can live with that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

SB- I have enjoyed our back and forth over the last few days. I want to thank you for sharing with me your point of view, you have given me alot to think about. I do think that it is through these types of interchanges that we grow.

[Maggie]

SB- I have enjoyed our back and forth over the last few days. I want to thank you for sharing with me your point of view, you have given me alot to think about. I do think that it is through these types of interchanges that we grow.

I was not about to jump into this discussion (and I have not read the back and forth between you and SB) but I do what to write that I agree with this sentiment 100%. Good for you.

[DUShock]

Ah, original sin...

Wasn't this already decided at the Council of Trent?

[SB Shock]

I think part of what has been lost in my disscussions with SB is that, IMO, being pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion. I don't condone abortions, in fact I am greatly saddened by the act.

Yes I believe it was lost. I'm glad to see that clarification and it does put a little different context to your "pro-choice". I think a better word(s) would be that God is "Free-Will".

SB- I have enjoyed our back and forth over the last few days. I want to thank you for sharing with me your point of view, you have given me alot to think about. I do think that it is through these types of interchanges that we grow.

So have I. Shalom.

[ShockerFever]

I am not sure if this is directed at me or the group in general. I will answer.

God is pro-choice.

I think part of what has been lost in my disscussions with SB is that, IMO, being pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion. I don't condone abortions, in fact I am greatly saddened by the act. I believe that God wants people to make their own choices, and live with them. That includes choosing to sin. As SB points out God is the judge, not us.

So should we allow other acts that make us sad, such as regular outside-the-womb homicide, rape, etc. be allowed to happen simply for the fact of letting people choose what to do on their own?

[WuDrWu]

So should we allow other acts that make us sad, such as regular outside-the-womb homicide, rape, etc. be allowed to happen simply for the fact of letting people choose what to do on their own?

Thank you for properly disassembling perhaps the most stupid defensive stance of all time.