CIA 'Torture'

[EAGLE]

:good: :good: :good:

[WstateU]

RJL and KC,

I am an old soldier...I know a little about fighting. If there was anyway that I could have only fought for the people who appreciated my service I would certainly choose that now. There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

You guys sicken me...may the Lord have mercy on you both!

I am going to go pray for forgiveness for what I am thinking you deserve right now.

Guys, don't ever forget that some things are worth fighting for. Wouldn't it be fitting if the next terror attack only harmed those who feel George W Bush overstepped his bounds in protecting us?

You guys go ahead and feel morally superior on your way to assuming room temperature because the Muslim terrorist who will kill you the first chance they get, don't care if you and I disagree about intelligence gathering activities.

Obama and the rest of you morons have zero credibility and zero respect from many old soldiers like me. If you think running around the world and reading I'm sorry and America sucks from a teleprompter, makes any difference to a world that only respects and understands power, you are a fool.

Go ahead and mock me for my rant...sadly, it is guys like me who earned you that right. :-x

Bravo Johnnie! You've 'earned' the right to rant.

:good: :good:

[WuDrWu]

RJL and KC,

I am an old soldier...I know a little about fighting. If there was anyway that I could have only fought for the people who appreciated my service I would certainly choose that now. There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

You guys sicken me...may the Lord have mercy on you both!

I am going to go pray for forgiveness for what I am thinking you deserve right now.

Guys, don't ever forget that some things are worth fighting for. Wouldn't it be fitting if the next terror attack only harmed those who feel George W Bush overstepped his bounds in protecting us?

You guys go ahead and feel morally superior on your way to assuming room temperature because the Muslim terrorist who will kill you the first chance they get, don't care if you and I disagree about intelligence gathering activities.

Obama and the rest of you morons have zero credibility and zero respect from many old soldiers like me. If you think running around the world and reading I'm sorry and America sucks from a teleprompter, makes any difference to a world that only respects and understands power, you are a fool.

Go ahead and mock me for my rant...sadly, it is guys like me who earned you that right. :-x

Johnnieballgame, thank you for your service to our country. This country will never be able to repay you and your brothers in arms for your sacrifice that all of us get to share.

May God bless you and all your family.

[SB Shock]

War is war. You either fight it to win or you lose. Maybe it our education system or we just don't want to remember history, but you win wars by inflicting so much pain on the other side that they submit. That is how you get peace. There is a reason why Egypt and Syria no longer attacks Israel. They got tire of getting beat into a pulp every time they did attack.

Recall WW2 - Firebombing of Dresden, firebombing of hamburgh, firebombing of Tokyo and the nuking of 2 cities in Japan. These were not bombing of military targets, but the infliction of pain on the civilians of nation to break their will to fight any longer. After WW2, resisters were not caught and thrown into jail - they were executed by military tribunals.

Similarly you can go back to and look at the way the Civil war and even the revolutionary war was fought.

[Ixiah]

RJL and KC,

I am an old soldier...I know a little about fighting. If there was anyway that I could have only fought for the people who appreciated my service I would certainly choose that now. There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

Part of the constitution is "due process" which can be found in the 5th amendment. Here is the definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

I'm realistic enough to know dirty jobs have to be done for national security at times. However, being overt and denying rights is just walking all over the very thing you claim to protect.

[WuDrWu]

Due process applies to our citizens, not terrorists from other countries.


Read the memos. If you truly think those things are torture, and are honest with yourself, then fine.

You would be admitting you are an idiot, but fine.

I don't see how a rational person can think this is torture.


If you do, then you have to be appalled at everyday police interrogation.

[SubGod22]

Due process applies to our citizens, not terrorists from other countries.

:yes:

Read the memos. If you truly think those things are torture, and are honest with yourself, then fine.

You would be admitting you are an idiot, but fine.

I don't see how a rational person can think this is torture.


If you do, then you have to be appalled at everyday police interrogation.

:good:

[Ixiah]

Due process applies to our citizens, not terrorists from other countries.

The supreme court disagrees with your interpretation.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/12/supremecourt/main4175226.shtml

5th Amendment:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Notice it says "person" rather then citizen. If you are held by the government then you get your day in court. The obvious exception is war of course. But then you are dealing with treaties that we have signed dealing with the fair treatment of prisoners.

I'm not sure what the big hangup is with putting them on trial. If they're guilty then let them rot in prison or execute them.

Btw:
Where did I make any comment about what qualifies as torture???? They get thier day in court to argue they were tortured - that is all. Oh and nice on not being personal on the attack there to :roll:.

[WuDrWu]

Justice Kennedy errored.

[Ixiah]

Justice Kennedy errored.

He read the constitution - if you don't like it - amend it.

[WuDrWu]

Justice Kennedy errored.

He read the constitution - if you don't like it - amend it.

So did Roberts, Thomas, Alito and Scalia and they agreed with me.


Stevens is senile and should have retired a decade ago. Ginsburg is left of Pilosi and shouldn't be counted.

Souter is a decent liberal justice.

Kennedy screwed up.

[Ixiah]

Stevens is senile and should have retired a decade ago. Ginsburg is left of Pilosi and shouldn't be counted.

Souter is a decent liberal justice.

Kennedy screwed up.

Lets see so extreme left should not be counted so using that reasoning the extreme right shouldn't either - there goes Thomas and Scalia. How about the fact that Bush appointed two of the justices ruling on the case. Can you say "appearance of conflict of interst". This could go on and on.

[WuDrWu]

Presidents appoint justices.....that's what they do.

Ginsburg and Stevens have both wanted to retire for years. Ginsburg is not in good health.

My point is they are only on the court because of who was President. They should have retired long ago.

Fortunately, I don't think you can find 2 worse justices...at least I hope not....but I expect the next appointment to be a complete joke.

If not, I will be the first to applaud the President.

[ABC]

I believe the decision was that hearings can be held to determine if due process shall be applied to a given enenmy comabant, not a blanket ruling for everyone.

Can you imagine have due process hearings in Afghanistan to enemy soldiers? That is nuts.

[kcshocker11]

RJL and KC,

I am an old soldier...I know a little about fighting. If there was anyway that I could have only fought for the people who appreciated my service I would certainly choose that now. There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

You guys sicken me...may the Lord have mercy on you both!

I am going to go pray for forgiveness for what I am thinking you deserve right now.

Guys, don't ever forget that some things are worth fighting for. Wouldn't it be fitting if the next terror attack only harmed those who feel George W Bush overstepped his bounds in protecting us?

You guys go ahead and feel morally superior on your way to assuming room temperature because the Muslim terrorist who will kill you the first chance they get, don't care if you and I disagree about intelligence gathering activities.

Obama and the rest of you morons have zero credibility and zero respect from many old soldiers like me. If you think running around the world and reading I'm sorry and America sucks from a teleprompter, makes any difference to a world that only respects and understands power, you are a fool.

Go ahead and mock me for my rant...sadly, it is guys like me who earned you that right. :-x

Well my friend my dad is a decorated WW11 Vet(a Republican I might add) and I let him read your post and he thinks your full of it. Your service is admirable but that doesnt make you anymore knowledgable or right. Your views lean right and I respect that,but that doesnt make you more or less of an American or a Patriot. Liberals and Conservatives have both shed their blood in defense of this nation.

Service to ones country doesnt guarantee moral justifacation. Soldiers of all nationalities throughout history have fought for causes that many times turned out to be less than admirable.

I have listen to a small group call other members names and insults for quite awhile and I have always been very polite in my responses. I dont need or want your prayers.

It is not a feeling of moral superority. I dont believe torture accomplishes anything except to lower yourself to the standards of what you fear! I am not going to live my life in fear because you or any other man, woman or institution tells me I should.

Speaking of moral superority

I am going to go pray for forgiveness for what I am thinking you deserve right now.

. What a joke!

Live in fear if you wish. I am proud of my nation and dont want it disgraced by these type of actions! I am proud of my President because he believes we are better than torturing people. I have never seen him say America sucks and neither have you! I believe by ending these disgusting practices he is showing how great a nation America truely is! I have seen him begin to reach out to other nations and admit there have been differences and mistakes made by both sides. Maybe by doing this young soldiers may not have to die for old fools ideas. If you dont believe this works fine, but for example where would Egypt and Isreal be if Carter didnt make the effort.

There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

This statement is indefensable! Do you hate foreigners? Are the people who are enemies of America those that disagree with your opinion? If so you owe RJL an apology! I dont need or want it!

I have a rule to never call another member a name and Is not a feeling of superority its called decency, respect for others and their opinions. I sadly feel I must break this rule. I do so because you attacked me for the great sin of having a different opinion than you. After reading your self discribed rant I am glad I am not like you and will never ever be. Oh by the way I dont need you to fight for my rights to do anything!

You sir are a coward!

— “The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example.” President Bush on UN Torture Victims Recognition Day 26 June 2003

— “Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law … Many have been detained, arrested, thrown in prison and subjected to torture by regimes that fail to understand that their habits of control will not serve them well in the long term.” Statement by President Bush released by the White House on June 26, 2005

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