Single Payer

[ShockCrazy]

My only real point, is that we seem to be quick to poo-poo free markets, but love to live with the fruits it provides. We see high costs here, and unfairness there, but fail to admit that without a free market in the first place, we wouldn't have the advancement or higher standard of living in the first place.

Costs are high for healthcare, but a lot of it is because we have the best care. We can treat things that 5 or 10 years ago were incurable. We can diagnose problems without symptoms. Being able to do that is expensive. But we also have to run unecessary tests in order to avoid lawsuits. It all contributes to it.

So, before we just jump to the conclusion that our benevolent government, who in their endless love for its citizens, will pay for all of our health needs out of the goodness of their hearts, perhaps there are better ways.

You assert we have the best care, and that is factually inaccurate as I cited earlier.

[jdshock]

Costs are high for healthcare, but a lot of it is because we have the best care.

Please cite your source. I'm not sure I've seen very many metrics that would ever put US on top.

So, before we just jump to the conclusion that our benevolent government, who in their endless love for its citizens, will pay for all of our health needs out of the goodness of their hearts, perhaps there are better ways.

Before you jump to the conclusion that single payer proponents believe the basis for a single payer system is that the government has "endless love for its citizens," perhaps you should engage in the discussion going on here and understand that people are actively discussing pros and cons of the system.

[ShockerPrez]

What country would you prefer to be in if you were sick?

[ShockerPrez]

Please cite your source. I'm not sure I've seen very many metrics that would ever put US on top.



Before you jump to the conclusion that single payer proponents believe the basis for a single payer system is that the government has "endless love for its citizens," perhaps you should engage in the discussion going on here and understand that people are actively discussing pros and cons of the system.

Most everything ive read is cost based. I would grant you healthcare spending would decrease. What are the consequences to our healthcare system after we eliminate the market based forces?

[ShockCrazy]

What country would you prefer to be in if you were sick?

Well for an expectant mother EVERY OTHER MODERN INDUSTRIAL COUNTRY. Pasting this again for emphasis: https://ourworldindata.org/the-link-...nding-us-focus

[ShockerPrez]

Well for an expectant mother EVERY OTHER MODERN INDUSTRIAL COUNTRY. Pasting this again for emphasis: https://ourworldindata.org/the-link-...nding-us-focus

What are the causes of death?

Im serious. Are they from the measles, or auto accidents? If you truly would rather give birth in a UK hospital or Wesley Medical Centers birthing suite, then thats your choice. But I would rather be in the U.S.

Charlie Gard and his parents were ready to spend a million dollars to come here.

Why?

[Aargh]

What country would you prefer to be in if you were sick?

Australia, Canada. Those are the only ones I actually have any knowledge of, so it's 100% for other countries.

Both of those countries seem to be rather like the US in terms of economic advancement, lifestyle, industrialization. Hard to gind two countries more like the US.

[ShockCrazy]

What are the causes of death?

Im serious. Are they from the measles, or auto accidents? If you truly would rather give birth in a UK hospital or Wesley Medical Centers birthing suite, then thats your choice. But I would rather be in the U.S.

Charlie Gard and his parents were ready to spend a million dollars to come here.

Why?

I absolutely would prefer another country. Seriously you are fine with the fact that twice as many infants die per 1000 infants born compared to any other industrial country? It's laughable you think that auto accidents would have enough statistical impact on this number at this scale. We are talking millions of births in a year. And nearly three times as many women die in child birth or in child birth related complications compared to any other industrial country, in what insane scenario is this OK?
So you are going to take one anecdote instead of real data? What about all the Americans who go to Canada for treatment or order prescriptions from Canada?
Edit: To add again that Charlie Gard scenario is again SINGLE PROVIDER, and not what we are discussing anyways.

[MoValley John]

Well for an expectant mother EVERY OTHER MODERN INDUSTRIAL COUNTRY. Pasting this again for emphasis: https://ourworldindata.org/the-link-...nding-us-focus

Strawman.

The main cause of the US not placing higher is lifestyle. We eat like ****, we don't exercize, we smoke and our front door for healthcare is the er. Hence, we don't visit the doctor before we are sick even though most insurance plans include check ups as part of the policy.

Income inequality does play a role, as does expense, but how we take care of ourselves and how we live our lives has everything to do with where the US places. If youcget sick, you want to be in thecUS, not elsewhere. It may cost more, but if two similar healthy people presented, one in the US and one elsewhere, you want to be the person presenting in the US. Unfortunately, we are fat, lazy, cigarette smoking, whiskey drinking slobs, our lufestyles set us behind the rest of the world before we ever show up for help.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1528032.1528035

[ShockerPrez]

I absolutely would prefer another country. Seriously you are fine with the fact that twice as many infants die per 1000 infants born compared to any other industrial country? It's laughable you think that auto accidents would have enough statistical impact on this number at this scale. We are talking millions of births in a year. And nearly three times as many women die in child birth or in child birth related complications compared to any other industrial country, in what insane scenario is this OK?
So you are going to take one anecdote instead of real data? What about all the Americans who go to Canada for treatment or order prescriptions from Canada?

I think I would just rather know what the data means. How long is an infant considered an infant, e.g. what is counted as a birth as opposed to a miscarriage in those countries? Are they dying in the hospital, or when they are at home? That's all.

I just dont see the great push by Americans going elsewhere for their care. I do see the reverse.

[ShockCrazy]

Strawman.

The main cause of the US not placing higher is lifestyle. We eat like ****, we don't exercize, we smoke and our front door for healthcare is the er. Hence, we don't visit the doctor before we are sick even though most insurance plans include check ups as part of the policy.

Income inequality does play a role, as does expense, but how we take care of ourselves and how we live our lives has everything to do with where the US places. If youcget sick, you want to be in thecUS, not elsewhere. It may cost more, but if two similar healthy people presented, one in the US and one elsewhere, you want to be the person presenting in the US. Unfortunately, we are fat, lazy, cigarette smoking, whiskey drinking slobs, our lufestyles set us behind the rest of the world before we ever show up for help.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1528032.1528035

Sure and I agree that for life expectancy as a whole. But that has nothing to do with infant mortality or maternal mortality.

[CBB_Fan]

What are the causes of death?

Im serious. Are they from the measles, or auto accidents? If you truly would rather give birth in a UK hospital or Wesley Medical Centers birthing suite, then thats your choice. But I would rather be in the U.S.

Charlie Gard and his parents were ready to spend a million dollars to come here.

Why?

Charlie Gard was born with mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome, a defect from having two mutated versions of the gene coding for the RRM2B protein. There have only been 15 other cases, and there are no treatments. Gard's parents were willing to come here to try an experiment that had been tried twice before to little effect and never for someone with his specific mutation.

In the US, Gard's procedure would have been denied by insurance just as it was denied by the UK, and for the same reasons. The procedure was almost certainly not going to work, it would cost a ton of money, and the doctor's themselves thought it would only prolong Gard's suffering.

Steve Jobs was ready to spend millions in acupuncture sessions and visiting spiritualists, but that doesn't mean they were better than getting real medicine.

[ShockCrazy]

I think I would just rather know what the data means. How long is an infant considered an infant, e.g. what is counted as a birth as opposed to a miscarriage in those countries? Are they dying in the hospital, or when they are at home? That's all.

I just dont see the great push by Americans going elsewhere for their care. I do see the reverse.

Infant mortality is universally considered the first year of life. Also where they are dying is irrelevant, you are getting lost in what is statistical noise. I don't see people coming here for ordinary circumstances, sure some come for extreme cases transplants, but that's about it. Here is the actual data: https://www.usitc.gov/publications/3...avel_final.pdf More money leaves, and similar rates in terms of patients in or out.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

What country would you prefer to be in if you were sick?

Well, this study says there are 31 other countries I should prefer to be in: https://lif.blob.core.windows.net/li...f.pdf?sfvrsn=2

The WHO says 36 other countries are better options: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/

And this medical journal says 34 other countries: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...818-8/abstract

We have to get over this false pretense that we're #1 at everything because, ya know, 'Merica!

Sometimes government control sucks. Sometimes the free market sucks. The idea that one of these systems is the answer for everything is demonstrably false.

[Cdizzle]

Sometimes government control sucks. Sometimes the free market sucks. The idea that one of these systems is the answer for everything is demonstrably false.

That depends on your metric. Quantifying the value liberty is a tricky endeavor. People have been known to demonstrate it was worth more than their lives.