Single Payer

[ShockCrazy]

The average margin for a health insurance company is only 3.3%. That is a VERY thin margin! There is absolutely NO WAY a government health insurance service can operate that efficiently. Not. Even. Close.

Margin what margin??? If you mean profit margin, that is the point. Surpluses would be nice, but healthcare doesn't need a profit margin. That profit margin goes exclusively to shareholders. Shareholders who provide nothing of value to the healthcare system. Also you seem to have a poor understanding of profit margin, a profit margin is not an indicator of efficiency or a lack of bloat. It just means they got more money from those who pay for insurance than they paid to healthcare providers. I worked at a company previously that was cash flush and regularly turned a good profit margin, it was still inefficient(it still paid me LOL).

[pinstripers]

Shareholders who provide nothing of value to the healthcare system.

the mind reels

[ShockCrazy]

the mind reels

Pray tell me what value shareholder's add to the healthcare system now? Do they infuse capital into the system? No, not anymore. Do they provide any work? No. The only thing shareholders provide is demands for high profits. UNH(largest insurer) has a market cap of 185b, they have paid out about $3b a year in dividends, in addition to having roughly 40b on hand. You really think that the shareholders will bear ANY financial burden should things go belly up? So they are effectively useless.

[Kung Wu]

Also you seem to have a poor understanding of profit margin, a profit margin is not an indicator of efficiency or a lack of bloat.

From an online dictionary:

profit margin

1. ... yada yada ... Gross profit is divided by net sales to obtain the profit margin—an excellent indicator of a firm's operating efficiency, its pricing policies, and its ability to remain competitive.

No apology necessary.

I worked at a company previously that was cash flush and regularly turned a good profit margin, it was still inefficient(it still paid me LOL).

If the government were operating your former employer, it would have paid 3 people to do the one job you were doing.

[pinstripers]

why are they called shareholders I wonder?

[ShockCrazy]

why are they called shareholders I wonder?

So let me get this straight, you support not only the middleman of insurance companies skimming off the top of healthcare? You then also support shareholders skimming off the top of that? When that money could have just been used for the necessary healthcare and providing for skilled jobs. You know, doctors, nurses, producers of medical equipment? Got it!

[ShockCrazy]

From an online dictionary:



No apology necessary.



If the government were operating your former employer, it would have paid 3 people to do the one job you were doing.

Yes profit margin between companies in a given industry tells you relative efficiency between companies. That spouted 3% profit margin for the insurance industry without context as a whole means NOTHING. United health has higher margins than other insurers, they are more efficient than other insurers, yes! But that does not indicate that the industry as a whole is efficient because they make 3%.

[WuDrWu]

But government will be much more efficient. Got it!

[wufan]

What are the causes of the high price of healthcare? How does single payer reduce those? What are the trade offs for the reduced prices? Is that a net positive?

[wufan]

I guess I still don't know what prices are going down. And I'm really not trying to play dumb. I'm talking about dollars expended per person on healthcare. That's the graph that caused me to say "I think we would see a decrease after switching to single payer," which caused your response. Those dollars could be paid out via insurance companies, via the government, or via an individual's pocket. None of the reasons that we would see a decrease per person had to do with prices.



I don't follow this logic. "The amount spent per person might go down" is exactly the argument that we're having. I responded to a graph about per person expenditures and that is the post you responded to. If you agree that "The amount spent per person might go down" like you said, then we do not disagree.



Hospital administrators would still exist. Aetna would not. That eliminates a whole bunch of salaries that have to be paid for out of general spending on health care.

I have poorly articulated my argument. If I can articulate it better and have the time, I will come back to this.

[ShockCrazy]

But government will be much more efficient. Got it!

Everyone parrots, the government is inefficient duh! And yeah we all have stories of the post office/tag officce/dmv sucking. But I challenge you to notice why they suck, typically it's becomes some dumbass got inline without all the paperwork and dick around with their phone for 15 minutes trying to see if somehow they have it there, or sometimes even worse they brought ALL the paperwork, they have no idea what all they have and spend the next 30 minutes sifting though it, while a clerk tries their best to help find the necessary documentation. Most studies though conclude that private vs public sector efficiency is very ambiguous and industry has more impact on efficiency than ownership. That's not to say the government is best at anything or worst, it really is case by case.

http://www.who.int/healthsystems/topics/financing/healthreport/P-P_HSUNo39.pdf

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiy6v3AxLnVAhUBwGMKHarcDOsQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.undp.org%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fundp%2Flibrary%2Fcapacity-development%2FEnglish%2FSingapore%2520Centre%2FGCPSE_Efficiency.pdf%3Fdownload&usg=AFQjCNEC9elpPFlDNSwvm99Q_bV0wvjZOA

[MoValley John]

Pray tell me what value shareholder's add to the healthcare system now? Do they infuse capital into the system? No, not anymore. Do they provide any work? No. The only thing shareholders provide is demands for high profits. UNH(largest insurer) has a market cap of 185b, they have paid out about $3b a year in dividends, in addition to having roughly 40b on hand. You really think that the shareholders will bear ANY financial burden should things go belly up? So they are effectively useless.

Oh my God. I can't even fathom how lost you are. It would take pages and pages of text just give you the slightest glimpse of what shareholders bring to the table.

I will add this, if shareholders didn't bring VALUE, and if shareholders didn't absorb RISK, no corporation would be public. Oh, and stock price has everything to do with a corporation's ability to borrow and operate. But no, shareholders bring nothing.

I think it's time for me to have a drink.

[Kung Wu]

What are the causes of the high price of healthcare?

Price controls.

[ShockerPrez]

What are the causes of the high price of healthcare? How does single payer reduce those? What are the trade offs for the reduced prices? Is that a net positive?

Greed.

Government says make it cheaper, so dammit, it will be cheaper.

No one knows, but its gonna be awesome!

Now sucks! Change it.

[shockmonster]

Price controls.

Not necessarily.