Educational Discipline Problems in Decline

[mini-shock]

A teachers diagnosis is worth about as much as some members posts on Shockernet and is irrelevant to the discussion.

Exactly, which is why it is relevant to how quickly teachers give up on children and label them as ADD'ers and start sending them to detention for silly things like getting up to get a pencil 10 times. Relevant. :stupid: That's just one scenario, off the dome.

[wufan]

Exactly, which is why it is relevant to how quickly teachers give up on children and label them as ADD'ers and start sending them to detention for silly things like getting up to get a pencil 10 times. Relevant. :stupid: That's just one scenario, off the dome.

Whether or not a teacher thinks a student has ADD has what to do with suspension?

[MoValley John]

Whether or not a teacher thinks a student has ADD has what to do with suspension?

Nothing.

[BOBB]

There are some private schools that focus on inner city didadvantaged youth that do quite well. Jesuit Academy in Omaha is one. These schools are full of neglected kids that have chosen to put education first. These schools have a sliding scale tuition and in most cases are free. The kids outperform the public schools and often, other private schools.

What this tells me is that while all of the given reasons for the struggle in education today, there are more problems, many yet to be identified. I really think disciple in the schools is lost, weak leadership exisists in administration, poor priorities of parents and many other issues cause the problem. White flight is a symptom, not a cause.

We need engaged teachers, parents that care and effective discipline and effective leadership.

Suspensions and expulsions are not disciple, just an easy way to rid a school of a problem student. It is also reactive and not proactive.

You are making my point. Engaged students self select or are referred to these academies. Everyone that can leaves.

[MoValley John]

You are making my point. Engaged students self select or are referred to these academies. Everyone that can leaves.

I wasn't arguing. I was expanding.

[RoyalShock]

My fiancee is an elementary school psych, so our conversations about our jobs can often get into things like this. I can't cite stats or concrete facts, but will share some thoughts from what I've learned from her, so take it for what it's worth.

The challenges that poor families have often make their child's behavior and education a secondary concern. Primary issues are keeping a home, keeping their job and putting food on the table. And that's just the parents who are truly trying. I can't even begin to get into the additional problems substance abuse, young/immature/abusive/self-centered parents, et al. inject into the situation.

My fiancee has a general rule of expectation when scheduling meetings with parents about their child (and keep in mind, these include students being tested both for intellectual disabilities and giftedness, the latter of which typically involves middle-to-upper class families who are invested in their children's success): In one out of every three meetings, the parent(s) won't show up. There are multiple reasons for this, including difficulties getting off of work, but many are either because they just forgot or had no intention of going.

One's IQ is largely determined by genetics. Low IQ parents tend to produce low IQ kids who grow up to produce more low IQ kids. Poorer families generally have lower IQs (surprise, surprise). Poorer parents tend to have more kids. I think it's generally accepted that kids with behavioral problems largely come from these types of families.

Of course there are exceptions to all of this, but I wonder if the increase of disciplinary problems in the schools can be partly attributed (in addition to the other opinions offered in this thread) to demographics, or more specifically, the natural increase in poorer families with lower IQ children.

[wufan]

My fiancee is an elementary school psych, so our conversations about our jobs can often get into things like this. I can't cite stats or concrete facts, but will share some thoughts from what I've learned from her, so take it for what it's worth.

The challenges that poor families have often make their child's behavior and education a secondary concern. Primary issues are keeping a home, keeping their job and putting food on the table. And that's just the parents who are truly trying. I can't even begin to get into the additional problems substance abuse, young/immature/abusive/self-centered parents, et al. inject into the situation.

My fiancee has a general rule of expectation when scheduling meetings with parents about their child (and keep in mind, these include students being tested both for intellectual disabilities and giftedness, the latter of which typically involves middle-to-upper class families who are invested in their children's success): In one out of every three meetings, the parent(s) won't show up. There are multiple reasons for this, including difficulties getting off of work, but many are either because they just forgot or had no intention of going.

One's IQ is largely determined by genetics. Low IQ parents tend to produce low IQ kids who grow up to produce more low IQ kids. Poorer families generally have lower IQs (surprise, surprise). Poorer parents tend to have more kids. I think it's generally accepted that kids with behavioral problems largely come from these types of families.

Of course there are exceptions to all of this, but I wonder if the increase of disciplinary problems in the schools can be partly attributed (in addition to the other opinions offered in this thread) to demographics, or more specifically, the natural increase in poorer families with lower IQ children.

I don't find any of the above difficult to believe or understand, but it should be noted that, generationally, IQ is going up. Because IQ is based on a curve it is impossible that we have 30-50% more low IQ people in existence. It is possible that demographics have shifted.

[Walker]

My wife teaches in Cimarron which is about 15 miles west of Dodge. If I had to guess, Cimarron is little bigger than Bell Plain with around 2,000 people. They are experiencing similar things even in these little towns. She teaches English at the Jr. High and High School and says it's drastically different from even 5 years ago. Her first year students were courteous, disciplined and most were able to display writing skills appropriate with their age.

Now she comes more stressed from their behavior and from having to grade papers filled with errors or written in cell phone lingo. I'm convinced that it's only a matter of time she grades a paper where punctuation is completely replaced with emojis.

I think there are so many factors involved so it might be hard to narrow it down, but I think the biggest contributing factors are family life, culture & faculty have their hands tied behind their backs when it comes to discipline (and in some cases ridiculous when common sense is thrown out the door, i.e. kindergartner being suspended for using hand as a play gun).

I'd hate to have more government intervention because I think the more we've gotten, the worse things have gotten.

[pinstripers]

Cimarron is a wonderful place,

[Walker]

Cimarron is a wonderful place,

Oh definitely, nice little town with great people!

[shockmonster]

My fiancee is an elementary school psych, so our conversations about our jobs can often get into things like this. I can't cite stats or concrete facts, but will share some thoughts from what I've learned from her, so take it for what it's worth.

The challenges that poor families have often make their child's behavior and education a secondary concern. Primary issues are keeping a home, keeping their job and putting food on the table. And that's just the parents who are truly trying. I can't even begin to get into the additional problems substance abuse, young/immature/abusive/self-centered parents, et al. inject into the situation.

My fiancee has a general rule of expectation when scheduling meetings with parents about their child (and keep in mind, these include students being tested both for intellectual disabilities and giftedness, the latter of which typically involves middle-to-upper class families who are invested in their children's success): In one out of every three meetings, the parent(s) won't show up. There are multiple reasons for this, including difficulties getting off of work, but many are either because they just forgot or had no intention of going.

One's IQ is largely determined by genetics. Low IQ parents tend to produce low IQ kids who grow up to produce more low IQ kids. Poorer families generally have lower IQs (surprise, surprise). Poorer parents tend to have more kids. I think it's generally accepted that kids with behavioral problems largely come from these types of families.

Of course there are exceptions to all of this, but I wonder if the increase of disciplinary problems in the schools can be partly attributed (in addition to the other opinions offered in this thread) to demographics, or more specifically, the natural increase in poorer families with lower IQ children.

Some Nature vs. Nurture questions here?

[RoyalShock]

I don't find any of the above difficult to believe or understand, but it should be noted that, generationally, IQ is going up. Because IQ is based on a curve it is impossible that we have 30-50% more low IQ people in existence. It is possible that demographics have shifted.

I should clarify that what I mean by "lower IQ" isn't that IQ is dropping, but that they appear on the lower end of the IQ spectrum, or curve, as you put it.

[wufan]

I think what wufan was stating is that the IQ as a whole had gone up over time... IQ is renormed every 10 yrs or so average is always 100 with a typical standard deviation of 15. However a 100 now is not the same as a 100 30 yrs ago. Does that make sense?

That is correct. And since there are, on percentage, the exact same number of people with an IQ of 80 now that there was 20 years ago, and that an IQ of 80 today is better than an IQ of 80 20 years ago, then you can't have more dumb people in the schools today than you did 20 years ago. There has to be a different cause for the behavioral problems than IQ.

[shockmonster]

However mental health is declining. I'm not sure what the implications of this is regarding socio-Economic factors, urban, suburban, and rural factors, and if technologies may be a factor for it. Plus there may be additional factors that could affect mental health.