Oregon man fined $500 for criticizing red-light camera system

[RoyalShock]

The actual citation was for "practicing engineering without a license". Yeah, it's as ridiculous as it sounds. The guy actually has a BS in electronic engineering.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170425/14273237238/guy-fined-500-criticizing-government-without-permit-sues-oregon-licensing-board.shtml

In response to Jarlstrom's exercise of his First Amendment rights, the Oregon state engineering licensing board opened an investigation. Unsurprisingly, it arrived at the conclusion that it hadn't handed out an engineering license to Jarlstrom. Surprisingly, this effort wasted nearly two years of taxpayer time and money.

According to the Board, Mats illegally practiced engineering without a license every time he “critique[d]” the existing traffic-light system and shared his ideas with “members of the public.” Even his e-mail to the creator of the original formula was ruled illegal. So was his correspondence with local media.

[1972Shocker]

Nutty as hell.

[ShockTalk]

The actual citation was for "practicing engineering without a license". Yeah, it's as ridiculous as it sounds. The guy actually has a BS in electronic engineering.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ng-board.shtml

They may have just opened up a bigger can of worms. I hope so, anyway.

[RoyalShock]

They may have just opened up a bigger can of worms. I hope so, anyway.

I can't see any scenario, outside of corruption, where this guy doesn't win. The core issue is being required to have a government issued license in order to exercise one's Constitutionally protected right to criticize said government.

[Kung Wu]

I can't see any scenario, outside of corruption, where this guy doesn't win. The core issue is being required to have a government issued license in order to exercise one's Constitutionally protected right to criticize said government.

Modern leftist judges aren't particularly interested in the Constitution.

[ShockerPrez]

This is the kind of **** that needs to keep happening and then at some point, even the softest snowflake will be like, "Seriously?"

But until then, I am going to keep renewing my license to be an asshole biannualy.

[jdshock]

Modern leftist judges aren't particularly interested in the Constitution.

Liberal judges are more likely to find in favor of broad free speech rights than conservative judges. Unfortunately, both conservatives and liberals were more likely to uphold broad rights when the party seeking free speech aligned with them politically. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/0...gree-with.html

As of now, there's been a single fine by the engineering board for the state. Let's hold off on blaming any judges until one is presented with the opportunity to screw up.

And to be clear, I think he's probably got a great argument, but it's not as much of a slam dunk as articles would make it out to be. Self-regulating professions (in the sense that it's a semi government agency run by engineers) are given quite a bit of leeway usually. Saying "I'm an engineer and put my stamp of approval as an engineer" is different than saying "doesn't it make more sense to do it this other way?"

[MoValley John]

Did he sign off an anything as an engineer? Did he ever claim to be an engineer, or attempt to pass off as such? If so, dude is in trouble. If not, the fine will be dropped.

[jdshock]

Did he sign off an anything as an engineer? Did he ever claim to be an engineer, or attempt to pass off as such? If so, dude is in trouble. If not, the fine will be dropped.

In the board's decision they say he originally emailed the board asking to share his findings on red light cameras. They wrote back saying they don't deal with those issues, but also he should be careful to not call himself an engineer because he's not licensed. A year later, he emailed the board and said, "I'm an excellent engineer." In between, it sounds like he was contacting everyone he could to share his findings.

[MoValley John]

In the board's decision they say he originally emailed the board asking to share his findings on red light cameras. They wrote back saying they don't deal with those issues, but also he should be careful to not call himself an engineer because he's not licensed. A year later, he emailed the board and said, "I'm an excellent engineer." In between, it sounds like he was contacting everyone he could to share his findings.

Then it isn't a free speech issue, it's an issue of a man misrepresenting himself as professional in a regulated field.

You can finish top in your medical school, but if you don't pass your boards and pay for your license, you can't practice medicine. Same with engineers.

[SHOCKvalue]

Then it isn't a free speech issue, it's an issue of a man misrepresenting himself as professional in a regulated field.

You can finish top in your medical school, but if you don't pass your boards and pay for your license, you can't practice medicine. Same with engineers.

Really poor take. This town is filled to the brim with engineers who have no vocational license, just a degree. Not sure what proportion of aircraft manufacturing engineers hold a PE, but it's small. Just like you can be an accountant without being a CPA.

He's as free to share his thoughts as you are to share your hypothetical automotive problem diagnosis with the certified technician at the dealership.

[MoValley John]

Really poor take. This town is filled to the brim with engineers who have no vocational license, just a degree. Not sure what proportion of aircraft manufacturing engineers hold a PE, but it's small. Just like you can be an accountant without being a CPA.

He's as free to share his thoughts as you are to share your hypothetical automotive problem diagnosis with the certified technician at the dealership.

Actually, if jd was correct regarding the man passing himself off as an engineer, he can be fined. As far as the unlicensed engineering grads working in-house, they cannot sign off on plans, or present themselves as an engineer. There is someone in the shop that is licensed, and for lack of better explanation, those without licensed are working under someone with a license. This monster article will explain:

https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/professional-engineer-license-pe

From the article: "You Can Officially Call Yourself an Engineer Only If You Have a PE License"

[jdshock]

Really poor take. This town is filled to the brim with engineers who have no vocational license, just a degree. Not sure what proportion of aircraft manufacturing engineers hold a PE, but it's small. Just like you can be an accountant without being a CPA.

He's as free to share his thoughts as you are to share your hypothetical automotive problem diagnosis with the certified technician at the dealership.

Actually, if jd was correct regarding the man passing himself off as an engineer, he can be fined. As far as the unlicensed engineering grads working in-house, they cannot sign off on plans, or present themselves as an engineer. There is someone in the shop that is licensed, and for lack of better explanation, those without licensed are working under someone with a license. This monster article will explain:

https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/professional-engineer-license-pe

From the article: "You Can Officially Call Yourself an Engineer Only If You Have a PE License"

In addition to what MVJ said, there are always a lot of state specific rules in play. In California you can become a licensed attorney without having gone to law school. In the vast majority of states that is a pre-requisite to taking the Bar Exam. In both California and Kansas, you're going to get in trouble with the state Bar if you call yourself an attorney if you're not licensed, but they have different practicing requirements. It's totally possible that Oregon has stricter requirements as far as who can practice engineering.

If you're going to criticize the fine, you should at least read the opinion of the board: http://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/201...4769xA6322.pdf I think there's a decent free speech argument, but I also think there's an equally good chance another court would just say "yeah, don't call yourself an engineer to the state engineering board if you're not a licensed engineer."

There has to be a line somewhere. Anyone can criticize Roe v Wade under free speech. A non-attorney doesn't get to say to the state Bar association, "I'm an attorney and think the Supreme Court made a mistake in this case for the following reasons." Anyone can say just about anything about the Terri Schiavo case. Non-doctors don't get to say to the state medical board, "As an excellent doctor, I believe euthanasia is wrong for x, y, and z."

[SHOCKvalue]

For whatever reason unbeknownst to me, my social circle is disproportionately represented by engineers and accountants. The only one of the engineers I know who has his PE is the guy who's a civil engineer; the balance of the rest - all of whom work in Wichita aircraft - do not have their PE. Care to take a gander at which side earns more? The aircraft guys darn near earn twice what the civil guy with the PE brings home.

Also know a guy who is the left hand man for a CPA, who himself is not a CPA. Koch, Cessna, Beechcraft, Lear, Spirit, etc. are loaded with degreed accountants who aren't CPAs.

The field I work in you're free to call yourself an X. Even though you need to be a licensed or certified X to assumedly make much money in the field, you still can conceivably be an X, earning money legally and legitimately without the licensure or certification. You'd just have a non-traditional client list.

[MoValley John]

For whatever reason unbeknownst to me, my social circle is disproportionately represented by engineers and accountants. The only one of the engineers I know who has his PE is the guy who's a civil engineer; the balance of the rest - all of whom work in Wichita aircraft - do not have their PE. Care to take a gander at which side earns more? The aircraft guys darn near earn twice what the civil guy with the PE brings home.

Also know a guy who is the left hand man for a CPA, who himself is not a CPA. Koch, Cessna, Beechcraft, Lear, Spirit, etc. are loaded with degreed accountants who aren't CPAs.

The field I work in you're free to call yourself an X. Even though you need to be a licensed or certified X to assumedly make much money in the field, you still can conceivably be an X, earning money legally and legitimately without the licensure or certification. You'd just have a non-traditional client list.

Technically, they aren't accountants or engineers. They have accounting and engineering degrees, work in their field of study, but they are working in an accounting department, and are working in an engineering department, under someone that is licensed. Any of their public work is signed off by a boss, who is a licensed CPA or PE. Try to hang a shingle out, selling your wares as an accountant, without a license and see how long you last.

I'm not knocking any engineering grad, working in their field without a PE. Most don't have a license and most are very good at what they do. They earn a great living and do great things. I would heed their advice and suggestions. I'd listen to them and they do have a right to speak their opinion. But none of them lists "engineer" on their business card, because technically, they aren't until they pass the test.

I read the decision posted by jd. The guy crossed the line more than once. The guy is entitled to his opinion. The guy is entitled to free speech and to express his opinion. Where he crossed the line was.in misrepresenting himself as an engineer- more than once. In fact, the noard warned him once, the guy agreed to quit representing himself as an engineer, but then continued. The board was forced to do something.

The biggest problem with the article is that it ignores why the guy was actually fined, which was practicing as an engineer without a license, and focuses on free speech, which wasn't the issue. If you read the decision, free speech wasn't mentioned, just his continued misrepresentation of himself as an engineer.