Trump

[jdshock]

I didn't vote for Trump. I don't think he'll be a great president. I hope he will. That said, the bullshit being spewed by the left is just that, bullshit. I'm sick of the politics, I'm sick of the protesting, I'm sick of the handwringing. And I'm really sick of the class warfare, as evident in jd's post, and I'm sick as **** of the fearmongering. Nobody knows how this is going to work out, why can't we just wait and see?

Or.... We could do some more rioting and looting, that always works.

So should we not talk about what Trump does prior to 1/20/17?

If something I've said is bullshit, why don't you tell me what it is?

[CBB_Fan]

Everyone pays taxes. Some people pay income taxes. Very few pay estate taxes. A partial list:

• Accounts Receivable Tax
• Building Permit Tax
• Capital Gains Tax
• CDL license Tax
• Cigarette Tax
• Corporate Income Tax
• Court Fines (indirect taxes)
• Deficit spending and debt servicing (Fiscal 2011 state and local debt per capita was $9184)
• Dog License Tax
• Federal Income Tax
• Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
• Fishing License Tax
• Food License Tax
• Fuel permit tax
• Gasoline Tax
• Hunting License Tax
• Inflation
• Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
• Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
• IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
• Liquor Tax (Spirits, wine and beer)(From zero per gallon in Vermont to $34.22 in Washington for spirits)
• Local Income Tax
• Lottery (Fiscal 2011 per capita average was $59)
• Luxury Taxes
• Marriage License Tax
• Medicare and Medicaid Taxes
• Property Tax
• Real Estate Tax
• Septic Permit Tax
• Service Charge Taxes
• Social Security Tax
• Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
• Sales Taxes
• Recreational Vehicle Tax
• Road Toll Booth Taxes
• School Tax
• State Income Tax
• State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
• Telephone federal excise tax
• Telephone federal universal service fee tax
• Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
• Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
• Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
• Telephone state and local tax (Cell phone state and local tax rates in 2013 range from 1.85% in Oregon to 18.67% in Nebraska)
• Telephone usage charge tax
• Toll Bridge, Tunnel and Road Taxes
• Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
• Trailer Registration Tax
• Utility Taxes
• Vehicle License Registration Tax
• Vehicle Sales Tax
• Watercraft Registration Tax
• Well Permit Tax
• Workers Compensation Tax

Income taxes are the largest portion of our tax revenue, but it is disingenuous to say nearly half the country simply doesn't pay taxes. The "real" tax rate is an average of 43%, which would go up to 58.5% for those in the top income tax bracket, which means that for most Americans the income tax is not a majority of the real tax. Taxes are both higher and less progressive than most people think. There is less money to squeeze out for social programs than liberals would think, and the poor are taxed way more than conservatives believe.

Personally I prefer the Nordic model for taxes though I've heard good arguments for a Fair Tax. The Nordic model is high enough taxation to fund high quality social safety nets, but they balance the economic problems that can cause by having a lower corporate tax rate than the US which allows them to still attract business. Personally I'd just eliminate the corporate tax, as it doesn't make much money and doesn't provide much social benefit; the costs get passed on to consumers as a hidden tax so it is a poor vehicle for redistribution, and it simply discourages business. More bluntly, I don't see a positive net benefit from corporate tax (for instance, the employer half of the payroll tax) because all taxes will eventually fall to individuals.

[MoValley John]

So should we not talk about what Trump does prior to 1/20/17?

If something I've said is bullshit, why don't you tell me what it is?

Listing people's income and correlating how they will be bad for the middle and lower class is bullshit.

[MoValley John]

Warren Buffett is bad for the middle and lower class. Charles Koch is bad for the middle and lower class.

Anyone else see the bullshit in these sratements?

[jdshock]

Listing people's income and correlating how they will be bad for the middle and lower class is bullshit.

That's a fair point. I get that it doesn't seem bad to a lot of people. It bothers me that there's so much wealth among his cabinet because it makes it seem like his promises to the middle class were just lip service. That in conjunction with the financial incentives his cabinet has in conjunction with his business interests in conjunction with his tax proposals all indicate to me that he's not going to be good for the middle class. I shouldn't have worded it the way I did where I said the crazy wealth in his cabinet alone was enough to make someone pessimistic. Obviously that was a sticking point for several of you since that's the only thing that's caused any real debate.

That's one of like 20 things I've listed, though. And it's also one that is supported separately by the tax proposals he has made, so I still do stand behind my belief that he was lying about prioritizing the middle class.

[WuDrWu]

Everyone pays taxes. Some people pay income taxes. Very few pay estate taxes. A partial list:

• Accounts Receivable Tax
• Building Permit Tax
• Capital Gains Tax
• CDL license Tax
• Cigarette Tax
• Corporate Income Tax
• Court Fines (indirect taxes)
• Deficit spending and debt servicing (Fiscal 2011 state and local debt per capita was $9184)
• Dog License Tax
• Federal Income Tax
• Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
• Fishing License Tax
• Food License Tax
• Fuel permit tax
• Gasoline Tax
• Hunting License Tax
• Inflation
• Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
• Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
• IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
• Liquor Tax (Spirits, wine and beer)(From zero per gallon in Vermont to $34.22 in Washington for spirits)
• Local Income Tax
• Lottery (Fiscal 2011 per capita average was $59)
• Luxury Taxes
• Marriage License Tax
• Medicare and Medicaid Taxes
• Property Tax
• Real Estate Tax
• Septic Permit Tax
• Service Charge Taxes
• Social Security Tax
• Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
• Sales Taxes
• Recreational Vehicle Tax
• Road Toll Booth Taxes
• School Tax
• State Income Tax
• State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
• Telephone federal excise tax
• Telephone federal universal service fee tax
• Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
• Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
• Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
• Telephone state and local tax (Cell phone state and local tax rates in 2013 range from 1.85% in Oregon to 18.67% in Nebraska)
• Telephone usage charge tax
• Toll Bridge, Tunnel and Road Taxes
• Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
• Trailer Registration Tax
• Utility Taxes
• Vehicle License Registration Tax
• Vehicle Sales Tax
• Watercraft Registration Tax
• Well Permit Tax
• Workers Compensation Tax

Income taxes are the largest portion of our tax revenue, but it is disingenuous to say nearly half the country simply doesn't pay taxes. The "real" tax rate is an average of 43%, which would go up to 58.5% for those in the top income tax bracket, which means that for most Americans the income tax is not a majority of the real tax. Taxes are both higher and less progressive than most people think. There is less money to squeeze out for social programs than liberals would think, and the poor are taxed way more than conservatives believe.

Personally I prefer the Nordic model for taxes though I've heard good arguments for a Fair Tax. The Nordic model is high enough taxation to fund high quality social safety nets, but they balance the economic problems that can cause by having a lower corporate tax rate than the US which allows them to still attract business. Personally I'd just eliminate the corporate tax, as it doesn't make much money and doesn't provide much social benefit; the costs get passed on to consumers as a hidden tax so it is a poor vehicle for redistribution, and it simply discourages business. More bluntly, I don't see a positive net benefit from corporate tax (for instance, the employer half of the payroll tax) because all taxes will eventually fall to individuals.

You just named a whole bunch of taxes that nobody has to pay, and others that only a select few have to pay.

And you say that the majority is Income Tax, where a good percentage pay zero, and a smaller percentage take in the form of EIC.

So what's your point?

You said you prefer a Nordic model for taxes...I assume you support a similar Nordic model for the percentage of poor and the military...expenses in general?

And you're full of bs about people thinking taxes are less progressive than most people think, unless you're skewing your "opinion" with percentages.

Certainly a person that doesn't work and spends his welfare money only on cigs, liquor and lottery is taxed at an insane %. Of course, that person is CHOOSING to pay those taxes.

How much of the pie do you want the wealthy to pay? Clearly you like redistribution, so I'm not even sure your opinion is going to mean much to me, but how much of the pie?

Don't try and compare someone TAKING from govt and giving back 10% in taxes with someone paying 6 figures in taxes. It make you look silly.

[WuDrWu]

It bothers me that there's so much wealth among his cabinet because it makes it seem like his promises to the middle class were just lip service.

You continue to assume that because they are rich, they are evil and will look out for themselves. There's NO chance they are just SMART and can achieve better results in their new jobs than previous egg head no real life experience bureaucrats. Right?

[jdshock]

You continue to assume that because they are rich, they are evil and will look out for themselves. There's NO chance they are just SMART and can achieve better results in their new jobs than previous egg head no real life experience bureaucrats. Right?

I really regret ever saying anything about it. Like I said, if we're going to talk about Trump's policy stuff, let's talk about the objective things that aren't skewed by our biases. For me, personally, in my humble opinion, etc., hiring a bunch of rich dudes ALONG WITH everything else, it's a bad look. That's all I was saying, and that's what I was trying to explain in the second post. It bothers ME. I'm not trying to convince you of that point, and I already said that I shouldn't have worded that post the way I did. I owned up to my mistake.

There have been a lot of posts in this thread since my initial one, and only one or two have made any real attempt at saying the actual, objective policy proposals aren't bad. The rest have been trying to say it's okay to have rich cabinet members. Fine. That's an easy argument for me to concede. Let's talk about the other stuff.

If you're going to pick a fight on this, tell me why Trump will be good for the middle class.

[wufan]

The idea is that by creating opportunities for smart/wealthy businesses/businessmen, there will be more jobs for the middle class. You may or may not agree with this philosophy.

[jdshock]

The idea is that by creating opportunities for smart/wealthy businesses/businessmen, there will be more jobs for the middle class. You may or may not agree with this philosophy.

You're referring to the big tax breaks for the wealthy?

If Trump agrees with you, why did he originally promise the biggest tax breaks for the middle class?

[wufan]

You're referring to the big tax breaks for the wealthy?

If Trump agrees with you, why did he originally promise the biggest tax breaks for the middle class?

Please show me where he said the biggest tax break would be for the middle class. I don't recall and couldn't find it on a quick google search.

What's middle class?

[jdshock]

Please show me where he said the biggest tax break would be for the middle class. I don't recall and couldn't find it on a quick google search.

What's middle class?

I don't know what the definition of the "middle class" is. Didn't Romney say 250k is the cut off? That seems a little high to me, especially in many US cities, but I don't know. It doesn't really matter. According to the independent analysis I provided, the biggest (by a large margin) benefits were for the top 1/5. That's not the middle class. I'm just using the phrasing Donald Trump used in his campaign.

I linked to it earlier when I gave the quote: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-delivers-groundbreaking-contract-for-the-american-vote1

The largest tax reductions are for the middle class. A middle-class family with 2 children will get a 35% tax cut.

[WuDrWu]

I really regret ever saying anything about it. Like I said, if we're going to talk about Trump's policy stuff, let's talk about the objective things that aren't skewed by our biases. For me, personally, in my humble opinion, etc., hiring a bunch of rich dudes ALONG WITH everything else, it's a bad look. That's all I was saying, and that's what I was trying to explain in the second post. It bothers ME. I'm not trying to convince you of that point, and I already said that I shouldn't have worded that post the way I did. I owned up to my mistake.

There have been a lot of posts in this thread since my initial one, and only one or two have made any real attempt at saying the actual, objective policy proposals aren't bad. The rest have been trying to say it's okay to have rich cabinet members. Fine. That's an easy argument for me to concede. Let's talk about the other stuff.

If you're going to pick a fight on this, tell me why Trump will be good for the middle class.

Admittedly I came in late on this.....very fair and honest recap, thank you.

[SHOCKvalue]

I don't know what the definition of the "middle class" is. Didn't Romney say 250k is the cut off? That seems a little high to me, especially in many US cities, but I don't know. It doesn't really matter. According to the independent analysis I provided, the biggest (by a large margin) benefits were for the top 1/5. That's not the middle class. I'm just using the phrasing Donald Trump used in his campaign.

I linked to it earlier when I gave the quote: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-delivers-groundbreaking-contract-for-the-american-vote1

Not the top 1/5th?

60th percentile (bottom edge of fourth quintile) of household income is approximately $70K.

80th percentile (bottom edge of fifth quintile) of household income is approximately $110K.

What most people consider as "middle class" is actually about three-fourths class.

[jdshock]

Not the top 1/5th?

60th percentile (bottom edge of fourth quintile) of household income is approximately $70K.

80th percentile (bottom edge of fifth quintile) of household income is approximately $110K.

What most people consider as "middle class" is actually about three-fourths class.

I'd say I mostly think of middle class in the roughly 70-120k range (maybe a wider range but clustered in this area), but maybe I'm way off. What do you think is the range?

I'm not sure what exactly you're refuting. If the middle class does overlap into the top 20%, it's the very bottom fringes of it. The report found that the average savings for the top 20% would be in the millions per year. That's not the case for any middle class family.