Trump

[jdshock]

Who the hell has been supporting Roy Moore and Mr Flynn?

Trump has repeatedly defended both of them.

We're back to the words don't matter argument, but that's why it's relevant.

[wufan]

Trump has repeatedly defended both of them.

We're back to the words don't matter argument, but that's why it's relevant.

I’m aware Trump supported them, but the posts were pointed at a reader on this board. We all know that Trump spends 18 hours a day watching the gorilla channel, so it wasn’t pointed at Trump.

CBB_Fan appeared to be articulating that if someone believed that the FBI and DOJ were out to get Trump then they were pro-rape, amongst other things. That, my friend, does not follow.

My mother-in-law, who is in fact bat **** crazy, was telling me how pissed she was that they were going to put a Wal-Mart in the next town over. “Just an excuse to close down the schools,” She exclaimed! A rationale person could be upset that they were putting in a Wal-Mart or that they were closing down schools, but one does not follow the other.

I said empty words don’t matter, but ideas do. Therefore if words articulate ideas, then they can be argued. Trump should not have supported Moore or Flynn. We agree. Does Trump’s former support for Flynn and Moore mean that he is in favor of pedophilia and human trafficking? Probably not, at least not anymore than Obama’s support of Bill Ayers and Louis Farrakhan means that he was in favor of domestic terrorism and racism. Does it have any bearing on the alleged DOJ/FBI targeting? No.

[Kung Wu]

Unstable.

[CBB_Fan]

You support rape because you support rapists. Because them raping people isn't instantly disqualifying to you, doesn't shame you, doesn't impact your support in any way. You'll create massive conspiracies to keep the cognitive dissonance at a minimum, just as you (in general, not specific) somehow rationalized your way into thinking Roy Moore's accusers faked signatures. But in essence, you are still just trying to find a way to support a morally indefensible act by a morally indefensible man.

Since JJ seems to think I'm secretly hiding my secret Clinton-loving past, I'll take this opportunity to show how one should react when they learn someone is a rapist or anything similar:

I disavow any support I may have unknowingly had for Bill Clinton or any of his enablers, including especially Hillary. I cannot condone his acts, nor my own political support for him or any like him. His repeated sexual affairs demeaned the office of the Presidency, and the coverup for those affairs was even more reprehensible. The behaviors of Bill and Hillary were morally reprehensible, to such a degree that I feel only shame and disgust.

You'll never make a statement like that about Trump, even though he has a scandal of similar scale every week.

This week he even went full Clinton, as we found out he had an affair with pornstar shortly after Barron was born. He paid off the prostitute through his lawyer, who totally spent $130,000 of his own money, and that totally wasn't a political donation (FEC violation) or reimbursed by Trump (money laundering).

I like Bernie Sanders, but if I found out he raped and murdered a prostitute I'd be the first for him to face the full consequences of the law. Whereas Trump supporters would never stop arguing that the whole thing is a conspiracy, and Trump shouldn't even be allowed to be investigated. Supporting those that commit evil acts is supporting those acts. You can't say "I liked what Castro did to education, but don't put his firing squads on me."

Supporting Trump is saying that none of his rapes, sexual assaults, fraud cases, money laundering schemes, emoluments, or anything other crimes matter to you; you've managed to rationalize them away to justify supporting his ideas. That rationalization is not something normal people do; we don't go around trying to find ways to justify supporting school shooters, animal abusers, or common vandals for instance.

That rationalization is, knowingly or not, support for those actions.

[wufan]

I...disagree.

[shockfan89_]

Please post a link to any article of Trump being CONVICTED of rape or sexual assault. Once you do I will gladly make the same statement. In fact, there is much more evidence that his accusers in the media are guilty of these crimes but that is overlooked daily so they can continue to attack anything Trump does regardless of the validity of the accusations.

Trump's affair, unlike Clinton's occurred when he was a private citizen before he ever ran for political office, not in the Oval office. HUGE difference.

[jdshock]

Please post a link to any article of Trump being CONVICTED of rape or sexual assault. Once you do I will gladly make the same statement. In fact, there is much more evidence that his accusers in the media are guilty of these crimes but that is overlooked daily so they can continue to attack anything Trump does regardless of the validity of the accusations.

Trump's affair, unlike Clinton's occurred when he was a private citizen before he ever ran for political office, not in the Oval office. HUGE difference.

To be fair, Ol' Bill avoided conviction too. And he has done nothing but deny any types of sexual assault. I assume you don't hold those allegations against him either, right?

The pre/post-presidency thing is kind of a silly distinction, I think. First of all, most of Bill's accusers were alleging instances prior to the presidency too. The only relevance is if you want to go down the path of president/intern power dynamic stuff. Frankly, I think this is one of the biggest changes over the last 25 years. Most people were talking about the Clinton stuff in terms of morality and in terms of his perjury. Basically no one was making an argument that he used his power to take advantage of a situation, and it was sexual assault. Today, it's a no brainer. That's the argument. If Trump has an affair with an intern, nobody is saying "Trump is immoral" and no one is trying to get him on perjury stuff, or at least not immediately. First and foremost, it's about sexual assault, saying she was an intern and was forced into consenting via a power dynamic.

[shockfan89_]

Yes I agree, but Bill also denied that it occurred, obstructed justice, and lied under oath that he had sexual relations with her. I also had an issue with the fact this occurred in the White House on "company" time.

[CBB_Fan]

Please post a link to any article of Trump being CONVICTED of rape or sexual assault. Once you do I will gladly make the same statement. In fact, there is much more evidence that his accusers in the media are guilty of these crimes but that is overlooked daily so they can continue to attack anything Trump does regardless of the validity of the accusations.

Trump's affair, unlike Clinton's occurred when he was a private citizen before he ever ran for political office, not in the Oval office. HUGE difference.

Trump's rape was proved in a court of law, as my previous links shows. It is the primary reason his divorce to Ivanka Trump was granted. His lawyers statement on the matter confirmed this “You cannot rape your spouse.” And while that is not generally true, it was true that New York did not regard spousal rape as a crime until 1984. That doesn't change the act, nor does it change the fact that Trump was punished in the maximum possible manner under the law at the time.

But I'm guessing you'll find a way to rationalize that away. Just as I'm sure you'll dismiss every allegation of sexual assault until he is convicted, while simultaneously maintaining that every single investigator that could bring him to court should be fired and he should be immune to civil suits.

And yes, there is a difference between Trump's case and Clinton's. Trump's lawyer paid off Stormy Daniels in 2016, during the election season. That $130,000 was an undisclosed contribution per FEC law, and is far larger than the individual limit. If Cohen's lawyer received compensation for such activity it could also count as fraud on the part of Trump. The cash for such an endeavor may have been laundered money Cohen obtained while working as an executive in the Trump Organization. Whereas Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky was just an illicit affair with no crimes involved (up until he perjured himself, but I guess we've stopped caring about that as well).

[shockfan89_]

LOL Trump was not charged with, or convicted of rape.

[wufan]

Trump's rape was proved in a court of law, as my previous links shows.

Me thinks this doesn’t mean what you think it means. Your statements (arguments?) are conflated and hard to follow. Let’s start with a basic premise and go from there:

JJ Clamdip supports human trafficking. This is a fact because...[now you go].

[ShockingButTrue]

So the judge who signed the Title 1 app was the same judge who was going to sentence M. Flynn in May, after having accepted the guilty plea? The same guy who was E. Holder's right hand man and appointed by Obama?

[JJClamdip]

You really have to feel sorry for and really wonder about the mental state of CBB_Fan.

So much pent up anger and hate, I just hope she does not go postal.

She really should be under the care of a doctor.

[jdshock]

Did you post that during the ending to the wsu game??

[JJClamdip]

Yes

[wufan]

Yes

You missed Conner’s big shot!

[JJClamdip]

You missed Conner’s big shot!

I saw my homeboy make it, clutch play, I'am glad for my fellow North High alum.

I am am sure that CBB_Fan missed it thought.

With her obsession with Trump she was scouring the Internet for anything she can find to prolong her deluded, irrational attacks. Of course what would you expect from a Gary Johnson stoner supporter.

What at a sick little world she lives in. Of course anyone that supports the use of drugs, like she does, that might explain her irrational ranting an raving.

[jdshock]

I saw my homeboy make it, clutch play, I'am glad for my fellow North High alum.

I am am sure that CBB_Fan missed it thought.

With her obsession with Trump she was scouring the Internet for anything she can find to prolong her deluded, irrational attacks. Of course what would you expect from a Gary Johnson stoner supporter.

What at a sick little world she lives in. Of course anyone that supports the use of drugs, like she does, that might explain her irrational ranting an raving.

Honestly, I think this crosses a line, and I think the entire discussion has crossed the line a few times in the last page or so.

First and foremost, anyone who's on the politics subforum of a shocker forum posting about how obsessed someone else is during the end of one of the most exciting games (which we won) of the season, should take a hard look at the pot and kettle.

More importantly, though, this subforum only works if we can show at least a modicum of respect for each other. Calling folks "bat sh*t" and unstable just shuts down discussion. If you don't want to engage with what a particular user is posting, don't engage. Moreover, we definitely should avoid trying to guess the identities of a particular user when a frequent poster left recently because there was (if I remember correctly) doxing or harassment or something.

The politics subforum is for fun. We're not fixing any major world issues in here. Ideally, we all leave a little more well informed than we came in. If you're not going to use it that way, we should probably stick to the beer topic.

[wufan]

You support rape because you support rapists. Because them raping people isn't instantly disqualifying to you, doesn't shame you, doesn't impact your support in any way. You'll create massive conspiracies to keep the cognitive dissonance at a minimum, just as you (in general, not specific) somehow rationalized your way into thinking Roy Moore's accusers faked signatures. But in essence, you are still just trying to find a way to support a morally indefensible act by a morally indefensible man.

Since JJ seems to think I'm secretly hiding my secret Clinton-loving past, I'll take this opportunity to show how one should react when they learn someone is a rapist or anything similar:

I disavow any support I may have unknowingly had for Bill Clinton or any of his enablers, including especially Hillary. I cannot condone his acts, nor my own political support for him or any like him. His repeated sexual affairs demeaned the office of the Presidency, and the coverup for those affairs was even more reprehensible. The behaviors of Bill and Hillary were morally reprehensible, to such a degree that I feel only shame and disgust.

You'll never make a statement like that about Trump, even though he has a scandal of similar scale every week.

This week he even went full Clinton, as we found out he had an affair with pornstar shortly after Barron was born. He paid off the prostitute through his lawyer, who totally spent $130,000 of his own money, and that totally wasn't a political donation (FEC violation) or reimbursed by Trump (money laundering).

I like Bernie Sanders, but if I found out he raped and murdered a prostitute I'd be the first for him to face the full consequences of the law. Whereas Trump supporters would never stop arguing that the whole thing is a conspiracy, and Trump shouldn't even be allowed to be investigated. Supporting those that commit evil acts is supporting those acts. You can't say "I liked what Castro did to education, but don't put his firing squads on me."

Supporting Trump is saying that none of his rapes, sexual assaults, fraud cases, money laundering schemes, emoluments, or anything other crimes matter to you; you've managed to rationalize them away to justify supporting his ideas. That rationalization is not something normal people do; we don't go around trying to find ways to justify supporting school shooters, animal abusers, or common vandals for instance.

That rationalization is, knowingly or not, support for those actions.

Is it possible to love your child even if they: cheated on a school test? Lied on a resume? Cheated on a spouse? Were found guilty of shop-lifting? Committed suicide? Charged with murder?

Are people allowed to make mistakes? Can you rehabilitate a criminal? To borrow a conservative phrase, “Can you love the sinner, but hate the sin?” Does the end ever justify the means?

I ask these questions, not because it justifies or invalidates anything Trump did (real or allegedly), but because it is an important question to your argument. If a single disagreeable act is all that is required to banish someone forever, then you are right that we should all be ashamed for not punching Donald Trump in the mouth. If some acts can be forgiven/rectified, then it is up to the individual to determine when enough is enough. If it is the latter in which you agree, then please stop feigning outrage and discuss ideas in reality.