Semper Fi

[60Shock]

Enjoy the song, but remember:

Every American should have the opportunity to share in this fight on an equal basis.

We need badly to bring back the Draft so that the same young men and women aren't forced to go back and forth every other year while the vast majority show their patriotism by simply proclaiming that they SUPPORT THE TROOPS.

We have become a nation that Supports the Troops as long as Supporting the Troops does not inconvenience anyone or anybody.

Enjoy this Trace Adkins' song, "Semper Fi!"


https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=536744346363038

[SB Shock]

We are at war?

[DUShock]

"Once that first bullet goes past your head, politics and all that **** just goes right out the window." -- Hoot Gibson

[60Shock]

We are at war?

Define war!

Google defines war as: "A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state. "Note there is nowhere mentioned anything about a Declaration of War being required.

If you are saying that we have to be at war to institute a Selective Service program or a Draft, you are mistaken. Selective Service was in full bloom from WWII til after Vietnam.

I seriously doubt that many military personnel, in any branch of service, would disagree, that any time they are directed by the POTUS to deploy to another country and participate in armed combat, that they are in a War.

You are certainly entitled to Call it what you may, a police action like Korea was called for years, or whatever. It really matters not.

What really matters is that we have young Americans men and women in a foreign country, as directed by the leader of our nation, risking their lives at war.

And in many chases, this is their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and even 5th tour in a combat area over the last 10-12 years. We have simply placed too damn much on a rather small and a continuing shrinking military force.

This wonderful opportunity to serve one's country and protect the freedom for all Americans and the world, should not be left to a few, but should be available for all.

I would strongly encourage everyone to read, 'Breach of Trust' --- How Americans Failed Their Soldiers and Their Country --- by Andrew J. Bacevich.

[SB Shock]

Sun Tzu - He who wishes to fight must first count the cost

Our country has counted the cost, and are not willing...they are content to let the "few" to continue to be sacrificed for something they don't believe in.

[60Shock]

I assume, when you say "our country, you are referring only to the American people minus the President (any president), his advisors, and perhaps even congress, if consulted.

So what our government has created, ever since Vietnam, is a very small, very skilled professional military, which has been engaged in extended wars, over a long period of time. Also, it is most obvious that this force is no longer representative of the American people.

Further, under this All-Volunteer Force concept, the numbers are dwindling considerably and it is very unlikely that any future President or more than a small handful of future Congressmen will have any idea what the military is all about or what military service entails.

The two above points are important because they are the very crux of the problem.

The American people since Vietnam, no longer have any stake and therefore very little say in our wars. They and their sons, daughters, grand children, nephews, nieces, etc., are safe and quiet about speaking out against our involvement in these conflicts because family members are not involved in the sacrifice as long as they don't volunteer.

General McChrystal, one of the generals whom Obama fired, made what I believe is a very valid point, “When it comes to war, citizens should have skin in the game. Only then can they expect to have any say in how and whether the game gets played.”

Keep in mind that reintroducing Selective Service for all 18 year olds and above, would only involve a small number of young Americans actually being called up every year, unless a major war broke out, and then then it doesn't matter as everyone will be called up regardless.

‘

[SB Shock]

I assume, when you say "our country, you are referring only to the American people minus the President (any president), his advisors, and perhaps even congress, if consulted.

Our elected officials are a snapshot of the will of the American people. We are Obama. Elections have consequences. Own it.

So what our government has created, ever since Vietnam, is a very small, very skilled professional military, which has been engaged in extended wars, over a long period of time. Also, it is most obvious that this force is no longer representative of the American people.

Why would it? It composed mainly of the Warrior of our nation.

Further, under this All-Volunteer Force concept, the numbers are dwindling considerably and it is very unlikely that any future President or more than a small handful of future Congressmen will have any idea what the military is all about or what military service entails.

Then that is a problem of the American people electing sheep instead of leaders.

I don't understand the logic of reintroducing a draft when the country is actually contracting the military and laying off warriors. So you want to draft more sheep so we have even less warriors? That ought to work well. We can become Europe.

[wufan]

I'm actually in favor of one year of service for all Americans upon graduation from high school, similar to Israel.

[60Shock]

So what our government has created, ever since Vietnam, is a very small, very skilled professional military, which has been engaged in extended wars, over a long period of time. Also, it is most obvious that this force is no longer representative of the American people.

Why would it? It composed mainly of the Warrior of our nation.

I explained this above and you glibly ignored it. You got no skin in the game brother. Americans sit back and read in the newspapers or hear reported on TV that a few of our military died in the ME and maybe feel a sad for a split second and go on. It's a hell of a lot different if one of your loved ones is over there.

Obviously I guess I am very old school and am in the vast minority, but I for one, firmly believe that that all Americans have not only rights, but obligations to protect the freedom of this country as well. And that when our country has been deemed, by whomever is president at the time, that we are in peril, then this responsibility should be shared by all Americans.

For well over 75 years we have had an enlisted volunter force and have further supported it via the selective service program during extended periods of conflicts like WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam. Yet, today, we have been in war like conflicts, continuously, for over 10 years which surpasses any previous period of time in the history of the United States.

Further, under this All-Volunteer Force concept, the numbers are dwindling considerably (because of previous forced reductions) and it is very unlikely that any future President or more than a small handful of future Congressmen will have any idea what the military is all about or what military service entails.

Then that is a problem of the American people electing sheep instead of leaders.

Gee, I wish I had thought of that - That solves it all, doesn't it.

I don't understand the logic of reintroducing a draft when the country is actually contracting the military and laying off warriors. So you want to draft more sheep so we have even less warriors? That ought to work well. We can become Europe.

I have to agree with you to a point on this one. For one thing, it is totally idiotic for us to even be thinking of reducing our force as Obama wants to do to a level less than it was prior to the start of WWII, for reasons I mentioned above concerning continuous combat duty. During this entire time we have over 1 million military personnel have involved in the ME conflicts and nearly 19% suffer from PTSD (190,000 cases) due partly to the continuous tours.

I can only assume that the reason the generals/flag officers who are still on active duty and haven't been fired by Obama, have not gone to the wall on this one, is that they re wimps and are afraid to speak out.

[SHOCKvalue]

Strange thread.

Hasn't the head count of the US military been pared back notably, with what amounts to some "layoffs" taking place? I've heard that all branches have tightened up candidate minimums as well - enlisted and officer.

I'm certainly no expert, but from an economic perspective it seems there is possibly more demand for military employment than there is supply. Basically the polar opposite of indicators showing the need for a draft or compulsory service.

[SB Shock]

I explained this above and you glibly ignored it. You got no skin in the game brother. Americans sit back and read in the newspapers or hear reported on TV that a few of our military died in the ME and maybe feel a sad for a split second and go on. It's a hell of a lot different if one of your loved ones is over there.

My grandfather served in WWI, my dad served in WWII, I have uncles who served in Korea, I have a brother and brother in-law's who served in Vietnam. I have served. So don't lecture me about skin as I well know the costs.

As far as everything else, I suppose you read a book, cool. The answer is not instituting a draft. The answer is if you are going to fight a war, then you fight war.

1. You mobilize a nation
2. You throw everything you have into fighting that war
3. You take the war to the enemy
4. You give the enemy no quarter and make them surrender (or die)
5. You wage swiftly and don't draw it out.

If you want to institute the Israeli model where everybody must serve for a minimum term on active duty and then serve in the reserves in case of mobilization - I can understand that because that fits nicely into #1.

The problem with this nation is not because we don't have a draft, it because we don't want to truly wage war, we only do it half-assed and it is killing and draining our future generations.

[60Shock]

My grandfather served in WWI, my dad served in WWII, I have uncles who served in Korea, I have a brother and brother in-law's who served in Vietnam.

The service and sacrifices that you and all the various members of your extended family to our country for going on nearly 100 years is most admirable and spectacular.

The answer is not instituting a draft.

The answer for protecting and caring for our troops as far as humanly possible is absolutely crucial over the long haul for winning anything. The morale of our armed forces serving today is as low as it has been over the last 20 years for numerous reasons stated in the Army Times and numerous military publications. Both enlistments and reenlistments (of active duty soldiers) are significantly down. Repeat combat tours and not being able to fire until approval from a higher level is a major complaint and has resulted in an increase of American deaths. We have to increase the present size of our military force as we are being dragged once again into a long and drawnout war and the cheapest way, and perhaps today the only way to do it, is the draft.

If you are going to fight a war, then you fight war. I could not agree more

1. You mobilize a nation - Today, only possibly and not sure even then, if one or more Nuc’s are set off in an American city. And just how are you going to achieve this without a draft
2. You throw everything you have into fighting that war - Completely agree
3. You take the war to the enemy - Completely agree
4. You give the enemy no quarter and make them surrender (or die) - Completely agree
5. You wage swiftly and don't draw it out - Completely agree

The only problem is that we have not done this since WW11 and I seriously doubt that we are about to change. Ever since then, our leaders have hamstrung the military by requiring us to fight with one arm behind our back. In Korea our AF in dog fights with the Chinese could chase them to the N. Korea/China border but could not cross the border. In Nam the AF was forbidden to bomb the North’s dams which would have flooded 30% of the country, causing large casualties and crippled the country. How many US lives could this have saved?

[Kung Wu]

I remember that the nation was fully behind George Bush's response in Iraq when it happened, regardless how the media rewrites history. The house voted 68.5% in favor (more Dems voting Nay than Yay), and the senate went 77% in favor (more Dems voting Yay than Nay) of the Iraq war resolution. Poll levels clearly indicated that Bush had popular support. Only until the usual politics of a new Presidential election began -- and the media thus attacking him relentlessly -- did that support erode:



In my opinion, Bush's only failure regarding Iraq was to allow the newly liberated Iraqi's to write their own constitution. They should have used General MacArthur's drafting of Japan's constitution as a guideline and implemented a constitution that completely ignored Sharia law from a legal standpoint, and even taken a clue from our own constitution that Iraqi may not adopt or impose a religion on its people. I believe that once the Iraqi people tasted true freedom without clerics arbitrarily writing laws and imposing oppressive Sharia law on people, there would have been serious popular buy-in of the new government. Perhaps to the point of people actually rising up to defend it -- but we'll never know. But we do know that by allowing them to incorporate Sharia Law into their legal system, the effort was doomed from the get go as far as winning over popular support.

I do realize that writing a constitution that specifically rules out making the state legal system subordinate to any religion law would have _escalated_ the war, due to extremists in the region realizing the implications of a true democracy with no established religion -- but that's exactly what needed to happen at that moment in time.

[Play Angry]

Eh, disregard.

[DUShock]