Just How Clsoe to the Abyss are We Today?

[60Shock]

So ... because our intelligence capabilities could be turned against the average person, we shouldn't have them, out of fear that they could be abused?

Man, have you seen our military? What do you think we'd do against our military if this country ever became tyrannical? Should we shut down our military? You think stockpiling a bunch of guns is going to protect you from an F-22 or an M1 Abrams tank?

What we should really do is weaken our government to such an extent that they could never hurt us if they chose to become tyrants. That'll solve things.

At some point you have to trust that the people in the military and in the NSA are Americans, and have JUST as much incentive to ensure that the America we all love remains the same. And that the courts overseeing them have the same mindset. And the people in Congress. We have checks and balances for a reason. When the checks and balances actually stop working, we're ****ed regardless. We have no way to defend ourselves against our government, and NEVER will. Because if we did, our government would have no way of defending us from ANYONE else. That's like cutting off your arms and legs because maybe you'd eventually go crazy and start punching and kicking someone.

What will kill America isn't a tyrant rising to power. We have too many checks and balances, and our military is filled with far too many patriots for that to ever happen. What WILL kill America is Americans completely losing faith in the system. I have no faith in this country to re-do our political system without a civil war. And we would never reunite after another civil war.

The fact that you're quoting something from 1975 should tell you all you need to know: this isn't a new worry people are having. We just keep repeating the same concerns for decades. And yet those fears have never come into being. Because our military aren't just patriots when they're in a warzone in Iraq -- they're also patriots when they're sitting at a computer working intelligence. They're no more likely to willingly violate the rights of Americans with a computer than they are with an M16.

Just where did I say or imply that we should do away with our intelligence services or weaken the military?

What happened is a very clear breach of every American's Constitutional Rights for which this administration has shown significant disdain for. And all the procedures and counter checks that were clearly in place were ignored. And yes, the Director of NSA and the President were aware of this and condoned it. This is where the problem lays or is that lies? So, obviously the so called checks and balances were worthless. And not in a single or a couple of cases, but completely across the board.

I totally trust our military, and I am not worried about an E-4 or higher sitting at a computer. It is the orders from the Dir, NSA where we have the concern.

But please tell me just why should I trust NSA because they are Americans anymore than I trust IRS, Homeland Security, the State Department, or the Attorney General of the United States or any other federal agency? All of named these agencies are/have been led by very controlling leaders solely at the whim of the President. And they have all recently screwed up royally. Even costing American lives.

Since 9/11, our Intelligence Services have done a truly tremendous job in preventing numerous terrorists attacks in this country. Certainly we need to recognize and support their efforts, while at the same time installing procedures, checks, and counter-checks to prevent, the loss of our Constitutional Rights.

[MoValley John]

Really!!!

Though no one was killed but Gen Macarthur had very little problems sending is troops in to clear out Hooverville. I have no doubt if he had order them to shoot some would have.

http://morrisonews.net/THE BONUS ARMY.html

So what you are saying is that I'm giving our military too much credit, that they would fire on US civilians. If they would fire on our populous, why on earth wouldn't they spy on us as well? That doesn't bode too well for the theory that we should blindly trust the intelligence community not to eavesdrop on us. Then again, the guy on this board that claims to be in military intel tells us we should trust them, so we should.

Tyranny can come from both the left and the right, regardless of political affiliation, we need to be vigilant against tyranny regardless of where it is coming. A little tracking of phone records here or there seems benign, but incrementally, we become desensitized until the government is given permission to trod over everything. Bush pushing and passing the Patriot Act was a gross overreach, what Obama has done with phone records and the IRS is just another step.

Then again, the government will tell you that you shouldn't worry about it if you have nothing to hide. I guess I should just blindly trust them...

[Rlh04d]

Nope, I wouldn't. I just did it back in the Reagan era. The whole methodology of information gathering has changed since then. Back then, we used Dixie Cups and kite string. We Never listened domestically, we obeyed every law, and we liked using the IRS to harass people with different ideologies. It was all good!

Entertaining sarcasm. No, of course the whole methodology hasn't changed at all. Everything about our intelligence community is the same as it was in the 80s. Nothing's changed at all. Technology is clearly in the same place. Funny that you'd joke about "dixie cups and kite string" as if the technology difference isn't almost the same. My cell phone's processing power is probably similar to the combined processing power of the entire intelligence community in the Reagan era. So tell me more about how the internet worked in your day. How were the computer punch cards?

Apparently you did some very illegal things. If you participated in the system you describe, I absolutely understand the self-hatred you have regarding your actions. Luckily, that's not the system we have today.

Everyone is an expert.

Lawyers and shady car dealers are career jobs. I am by no means career military, and will very shortly be done with government employment entirely. That's like saying you can't trust a pizza delivery guy to be honest about their employers.

[Rlh04d]

Just where did I say or imply that we should do away with our intelligence services or weaken the military?

What happened is a very clear breach of every American's Constitutional Rights for which this administration has shown significant disdain for. And all the procedures and counter checks that were clearly in place were ignored. And yes, the Director of NSA and the President were aware of this and condoned it. This is where the problem lays or is that lies? So, obviously the so called checks and balances were worthless. And not in a single or a couple of cases, but completely across the board.

The checks and balances come from the division of powers between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches.

So in this case, every one of those, with more information than you have, went through the checks and balances process and condoned the activities you're talking about. That's why we have House and Senate Intelligence Committees, one chaired by the Democrats and the other by Republicans, and various courts involved.

I totally trust our military, and I am not worried about an E-4 or higher sitting at a computer. It is the orders from the Dir, NSA where we have the concern.

So you totally trust our military, but believe it will turn on you in a second if they're given the order to? That doesn't sound like trust to me.

Since 9/11, our Intelligence Services have done a truly tremendous job in preventing numerous terrorists attacks in this country. Certainly we need to recognize and support their efforts, while at the same time installing procedures, checks, and counter-checks to prevent, the loss of our Constitutional Rights.

I fully agree with that. We absolutely need those things.

My problem was with the tone of your argument about having the capabilities "to make tyranny total in America." Our government will always have that capability, because neither our military or our intelligence community can defend Americans without also having the capability to control Americans if they were abused. We certainly have to control it, and ensure American rights are protected, but complaining that some aspect of our government is so good that it would be bad if it turned against us is pointless. That simply has to be true for them to be effective at doing the job we want them to.

[Rlh04d]

The judiciary that over reaches. The legislative branch can't even handle the basic task of having a budget that is not constantly writing bad checks. You have an executive branch that is either imcompetent or criminal with no accountability. The checks and balances are failing.

You basically have a government/political system that doesn't believe in the constitution - thus u have no trust in the govetnment.

Lol, problem u have is there is probably a pretty good proportion of SN who are former military and actually understand that MILITARY INTELLIGENCE is a oxymoron.

I love when people make comments about intelligence that are littered with spelling and grammatical mistakes.

[MoValley John]

Entertaining sarcasm. No, of course the whole methodology hasn't changed at all. Everything about our intelligence community is the same as it was in the 80s. Nothing's changed at all. Technology is clearly in the same place. Funny that you'd joke about "dixie cups and kite string" as if the technology difference isn't almost the same. My cell phone's processing power is probably similar to the combined processing power of the entire intelligence community in the Reagan era. So tell me more about how the internet worked in your day. How were the computer punch cards?

Apparently you did some very illegal things. If you participated in the system you describe, I absolutely understand the self-hatred you have regarding your actions. Luckily, that's not the system we have today.

Everyone is an expert but the people who actually do the job.

Lawyers and shady car dealers are career jobs. I am by no means career military, and will very shortly be done with government employment entirely. That's like saying you can't trust a pizza delivery guy to be honest about their employers.

Technology has changed, methodology, not so much. As for the pizza delivery guy, no, I don't blindly trust him. I count my change and always tip, you don't want him to spit in your pizza the next time he delivers. And I'm usually skeptical of what entry level workers say about their employers, most of the time, it's not good. And it's never their fault that they are in a dead end job.

[Rlh04d]

Technology has changed, methodology, not so much.

Which you of course know from your vast quantity of experience in the last 30 years. I'm glad you're so up to date on methodologies.

Anywho, I've said my part. There's too much anti-military, anti-government feeling going on in this thread for my continued participation.

[MoValley John]

I love when people make comments about intelligence that are littered with spelling and grammatical mistakes.

Anywho, I've said my part. There's too much anti-military, anti-government feeling going on in this thread for my continued participation.

While you are not singling out my error, I make lots and lots of grammatical errors while posting, but rarely do I point out other people's errors. It's bush league. But if you think you are cut of the cloth to be a spelling and grammar Nazi, you better go back and check your recent post where you used a "neither" and followed with an "or"

[Rlh04d]

While you are not singling out my error, I make lots and lots of grammatical errors while posting, but rarely do I point out other people's errors. It's bush league. But if you think you are cut of the cloth to be a spelling and grammar Nazi, you better go back and check your recent post where you used a "neither" and followed with an "or"

I didn't point out any of your mistakes for a reason. You weren't dismissing the intelligence of others. If you're going to start attacking the intelligence of others, then yes, you absolutely open yourself up to personal critique. If I was a "spelling and grammar Nazi," I wouldn't have limited my critique to the only person here who opened himself up to it.

Fair point at the end, though ;) I made the comment and opened myself up to it.

[SubGod22]

NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds

[MoValley John]

NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds

C'mon, Sub, get with the program! We need to trust the government, afterall, if somebody was told to illegally snoop, they would refuse. It has all been laid out in front of us by a person in military intelligence. We need to blindly trust them, they're just like pizza delivery boys. Trustworthy.

[SB Shock]

I love when people make comments about intelligence that are littered with spelling and grammatical mistakes.

That is the best you got Mr. NSA janitor boy? And then you screw it up....<ROFL>

[SubGod22]

As Ronald Reagan once said, the nine most terrifying words in the english language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

Excuse me if I'm not convinced that our bloated gov't has our best interests in mind when they do this crap.

[60Shock]

The checks and balances come from the division of powers between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches.

So in this case, every one of those, with more information than you have, went through the checks and balances process and condoned the activities you're talking about. That's why we have House and Senate Intelligence Committees, one chaired by the Democrats and the other by Republicans, and various courts involved.

THIS IS PURE BS AND YOU KNOW IT. THAT IS WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE. BUT IT WASN'T. HAD IT BEEN ACCOMPLISHED, THE TWO COMMITTEES WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SO UPSET.


So you totally trust our military, but believe it will turn on you in a second if they're given the order to? That doesn't sound like trust to me.

I NEVER SAID THAT I BELIEVED THE MILITARY WILL TURN ON ME OR ANYONE ELSE. THIS IS THE SECOND TIME YOU HAVE MADE UP WORDS I DID NOT SAY OR IMPLY. THE NEXT BLASTED TIME YOU DO, I AM GOING TO HAVE TO SPANK YOU, JUNIOR.


I fully agree with that. We absolutely need those things.

My problem was with the tone of your argument about having the capabilities "to make tyranny total in America." Our government will always have that capability, because neither our military or our intelligence community can defend Americans without also having the capability to control Americans if they were abused. We certainly have to control it, and ensure American rights are protected, but complaining that some aspect of our government is so good that it would be bad if it turned against us is pointless. That simply has to be true for them to be effective at doing the job we want them to.

AMERICAN RIGHTS BEING PROTECTED ARE THE KEY WORDS HERE. i AM NOT SURE WHICH ASPECT OF OUR GOVERNMENT YOU ARE IDENTIFYING AS "BEING SO GOOD THAT IT WOULD BE BAD IF IT TURNED AGAINST IS POINTLESS." SINCE I DID NOT IDENTIFY ANY CIVILIAN PART OF OUR GOVERNMENT BEING NECESSARILY GOOD (BUT YOU DO LIKE TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH), i GATHER YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE MILITARY. iF SO, THAT MY YOUNG FRIEND IS A MATTER WE CAN ONLY HOPE WILL NEVER ARISE.

[shocksrbest]

Trusting the government that's in power right now is far different from trusting the system that we have.

That's the difference between trusting the current President and trusting the Constitution.

With this current president, we soon may not have a constitution.