Say it aint so Ron Paul?

[Kung Wu]

Why did they attack us? Because we are rich and 7,000 miles away?

I just thought about this question again today. Usually when you ask why Al Qaeda attacked us, you get some incoherent mumbling about Isreal and that's it. So when you hear Ron Paul spout off that it's because "we are over there" and engaged in "bombing Iraq" and 3 or 4 other reasons, you think he's a kook.

I am now satisfied that Ron Paul is right about what their motives and reasoning were. Apparently he can read -- why can't the rest of the GOP?

Here are Bin Laden's own words in 2002: (from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver)

Section 2+ is just stacking tirade ****, but here is section 1. I will highlight the interesting parts:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

[kcshocker11]

Kung Wu Most people know this, few have the courage to admit it. Look at the resentment by some Americans created by only a Mosque near ground zero. Now think what the average middle eastern person thinks when others meddle in their homeland and location of their sacred religious sites. When you lack respect and sensitivity to others you can expect various degrees of resistance.

[shockmonster]

I just thought about this question again today. Usually when you ask why Al Qaeda attacked us, you get some incoherent mumbling about Isreal and that's it. So when you hear Ron Paul spout off that it's because "we are over there" and engaged in "bombing Iraq" and 3 or 4 other reasons, you think he's a kook.

I am now satisfied that Ron Paul is right about what their motives and reasoning were. Apparently he can read -- why can't the rest of the GOP?

Here are Bin Laden's own words in 2002: (from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver)

Section 2+ is just stacking tirade ****, but here is section 1. I will highlight the interesting parts:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

There used to be 80% Christians in Palestine (ethnically Palestinian). Now they have almost all been driven out of Palestine by Islamic extremist attackers. Do you think that religious Islamists (jihadists or whatever you call them) are only against America? It seems to me that they are intent on a world islamic jihad. Bin Laden is feeding you propeganda to hide their true intent. Ron Paul and you shouldn't fall for it.

[pinstripers]

Go build a Presbyterian chuch in Palestine. Good luck.

[kcshocker11]

The History of Palestine is a history of conqueror and occupier. Im not sure when it was 80% Christian as you say but it is a stretch to call it a jihad.In viewing the history of Palestine its seems to just be more of the same. Case you havent heard Bin Ladin is dead- If you wish to know the real interest in the middle east by the west its spelled OIL!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15239529

Heres is a nice page which gives the breakdown of Christian pop in the middle east

[kcshocker11]

Go build a Presbyterian chuch in Palestine. Good luck.

http://gamc.pcusa.org/ministries/global/israel-palestine/

You might want to tell them they cant

I'm not saying there arent radical Extremists but Christians have settled in far more hostile environments in their history

[shockmonster]

The History of Palestine is a history of conqueror and occupier. Im not sure when it was 80% Christian as you say but it is a stretch to call it a jihad.In viewing the history of Palestine its seems to just be more of the same. Case you havent heard Bin Ladin is dead- If you wish to know the real interest in the middle east by the west its spelled OIL!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15239529

Heres is a nice page which gives the breakdown of Christian pop in the middle east

The 80% came from a news story that was recent by the Christian Broadcast Network and I think they were mentioning Bethlehem(after reviewing my memory) in Palestine. Maybe persecution of Christians aren't directly connected to Islamic Jihad but if extremists can drive them out of their countries and territories, they'll be doing some of the same work. While those extremist groups may not be connected and organized together, if you asked them if they would like world islamic domination, they would almost all say yes. You tell me how many Christians are currently in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries where extremists are in power, and you won't find very many Christians.

[Kung Wu]

There used to be 80% Christians in Palestine (ethnically Palestinian). Now they have almost all been driven out of Palestine by Islamic extremist attackers. Do you think that religious Islamists (jihadists or whatever you call them) are only against America? It seems to me that they are intent on a world islamic jihad. Bin Laden is feeding you propeganda to hide their true intent. Ron Paul and you shouldn't fall for it.

What you are referring to @shockmonster: is called the caliphate and Al Qaeda has been open and up front that that is their desire -- to reestablish the caliphate. They aren't hiding anything, they are telling us exactly what they want and why they do what they do. You just need to open your eyes to see what the media doesn't want to tell you.

Ron Paul is the most learned candidate (and least palatable because his ideas aren't approved by the GOP) -- I assure you that he knows much more about the caliphate than you are willing to recognize. His point of view is that you are dealing with a rogue terrorist group that has no air force, no navy, no weapons of mass destruction, or a country to call home -- how are they supposed to attack a supposedly defensive minded country 7,000 miles away? If we had secure borders and were focused on our own security, perhaps 9/11 could have been prevented. If we weren't meddling with the politics and sovereignty of so many countries in the Middle East -- maybe they wouldn't even have focused on us in the first place.

The head of the wolf is cut off, and I assume the money supply too. Good. Now let's regroup and consider what caused 9/11 to occur, and how might we prevent recreating that toxic atmosphere in the first place.

As regards Israel, I believe that we need to stop interfering with Israel and let them reestablish the borders they won in 1967. That should have been the end of it. Israel needs to be free from Jimmy Carter-moronic interference. The two sides need to duke it out and the winner takes all just like it's supposed to be. If you don't like it, grab a gun and take your chances joining the nomads. War does solve these types of problems, whether that's popular or not.

[shockmonster]

Put atomic bombs in the middle of your scenario of fighting it out and you bring in WWIII. That's why Iran is so dangerous. You and Ron Paul may know more than me but I think that his ideas of Iran deserving an atomic bomb is dangerous.

[Kung Wu]

Kung Wu Most people know this, few have the courage to admit it.

Damn, I'm always late to the party! LMAO

Look at the resentment by some Americans created by only a Mosque near ground zero.

Like it or not you live in a very Judeo-Christian country that was attacked by Muslim extremists and killed 3,000+ Americans. Proposing to build a Mosque, even with the very purest intentions, at the site of the attack will be interpreted as mocking the solidarity of the country at best -- and erecting a trophy at worst. It was an asinine idea in the first place, and would be analogous to proposing to build a Japanese temple at Pearl Harbor only 10 years after the attack.

Now think what the average middle eastern person thinks when others meddle in their homeland and location of their sacred religious sites. When you lack respect and sensitivity to others you can expect various degrees of resistance.

On this I couldn't agree more.

[Kung Wu]

Put atomic bombs in the middle of your scenario of fighting it out and you bring in WWIII.

Not true. 1967 happened already and Israel won. WWIII did not break out. The dirty little secret is nobody likes the nomads that call themselves Palestinians either. They have virtually no allies.

That's why Iran is so dangerous. You and Ron Paul may know more than me but I think that his ideas of Iran deserving an atomic bomb is dangerous.

False. He said he understands why they are persuing them, not that they should. In fact he says: "I don't want them (Iran) to have a weapon, we have to be careful, we have to contain them (Iran) if they do get one". These lies are continuously spread by GOP wanna-bes. Lame.

[SB Shock]

Ron Paul speaks before Iowa Caucauses

[60Shock]

Israel was established 60+ years ago. Within the first 15 years, they turned mostly a very arid dry land into a most productive country The Palistinians, on the other hand, over the same number of years still live in squalor and haven't even come close to improving the land they have, nor improving the living conditions of their people. And not one single Arab country in the region wants them within their borders. They too, have received large donations of money. Not only from stupid us, but from the their oil rich fellow countries. But this has not gone for education or improving their land and or the lives of their children. No, it has all mostly gone for arms. Virtually, the only achievement they have made during over half a century has gone to Jihad and seeing their sons and daughters blowing themselves to kingdom come.

The stupidiest thing Israel could ever do would be to give up the land they took. Not only because it would gurantee absolutely nothing, but it leaves sections of their present country only five miles deep (or across) making it next to impossible to defend. This is one of the most important reasons why they have so strongly defended not returning a portion of the land previously captured.

[Wu du Nord]

This is probably a subject for another thread: while I understand its appeal, I don't see where Libertarianism touches ever really touches the ground. Honestly, I've never put much thought to it, but my quick take away is that it relies heavily on terminology that is abstract, pressed into service and then traded upon by disciples who rarely take into account the effortful conceptual construction required before their axioms become logically valid.

That said, Ron Paul is running for an office he can never obtain. The generally understood qualifications for the position are endogenously produced by an institutional establishment with which he claims to be at loggerheads.

What's the hubbub, bub?

[kcshocker11]

Israel was established 60+ years ago. Within the first 15 years, they turned mostly a very arid dry land into a most productive country The Palistinians, on the other hand, over the same number of years still live in squalor and haven't even come close to improving the land they have, nor improving the living conditions of their people. And not one single Arab country in the region wants them within their borders. They too, have received large donations of money. Not only from stupid us, but from the their oil rich fellow countries. But this has not gone for education or improving their land and or the lives of their children. No, it has all mostly gone for arms. Virtually, the only achievement they have made during over half a century has gone to Jihad and seeing their sons and daughters blowing themselves to kingdom come.

The stupidiest thing Israel could ever do would be to give up the land they took. Not only because it would gurantee absolutely nothing, but it leaves sections of their present country only five miles deep (or across) making it next to impossible to defend. This is one of the most important reasons why they have so strongly defended not returning a portion of the land previously captured.

Yes built in part with our tax dollars. Who knows what the others could or would have done with the same backing