Sub's Alternative Energy Thread

[BOBB]

Say whaaat?

Atmospheric Carbon is stored in wood.
You make **** out of wood.
As long as you don't burn or decompose that wood, that carbon is stored.
IF new trees are grown to replace that wood, there is a net reduction in atmospheric carbon.
Cutting down trees for houses: good.
Cutting down trees for cows: bad.

There is a theory that reforestation in Europe after the Black Death contributed to the Little Ice Age.

[WstateU]

[wufan]

Cutting down trees for houses: good.
Cutting down trees for cows: bad.

There is a theory that reforestation in Europe after the Black Death contributed to the Little Ice Age.

Wait…I have not heard these three things before (at least as presented). Please expand.

[wufan]

If we were nomadic, you bet. We would just follow the warming north to Canada and start farming the tundra. However, we have massive investments in cities that will have to take significant and costly mitigation actions and/or be abandoned by many.

Interesting article a while back describes the warming of Siberia and how quickly that land is becoming arable. Both Russia and China demographically are not going to have the people to farm it and will have to have immigration into what has been a fairly closed society.

Likewise imagine Californians, Floridians, Arizonans and Central Americans as a new millennium's "Okies" headed north to Canada start farmsteads. The former Rust Belt cities becoming boomtowns again while the Mountain West hollows out.

This is likely to happen over the next 100 years and we can stipulate that none of it is human caused, but the effects on world societies will be massive.

Tell me how cooling is worse than warming please. I wasn’t aware there was any debate.

[pinstripers]

Many many more people die from cold

[Shockm]

Atmospheric Carbon is stored in wood.
You make **** out of wood.
As long as you don't burn or decompose that wood, that carbon is stored.
IF new trees are grown to replace that wood, there is a net reduction in atmospheric carbon.
Cutting down trees for houses: good.
Cutting down trees for cows: bad.

There is a theory that reforestation in Europe after the Black Death contributed to the Little Ice Age.

You are as bad as Gore, AOC, and all the Democrat Politicians on this issue. They don’t know **** but they speak like they do.

[BOBB]

Wait…I have not heard these three things before (at least as presented). Please expand.

All part of the same concept that trees are stores of carbon. So things made of wood are a store of carbon. Plenty of caveats about the energy used to cut down, mill, assemble, etc... There is some terrific work being done with timber where steel and concrete would have been used a few decades ago. I digress. If that forest is allowed to regrow you have a net store of carbon. If you cut the forest down and then graze cattle on it, well you don't have a carbon sink anymore.

The Black Plague killed so many people that farmland was abandoned and reverted back to forest. The next century Europeans introduced new diseases to the Americas decimating the population with similar results of reforestation. This may have exacerbated an already cool period contributing to the Little Ice Age. It's an interesting hypothesis.

[shock]

All part of the same concept that trees are stores of carbon. So things made of wood are a store of carbon. Plenty of caveats about the energy used to cut down, mill, assemble, etc... There is some terrific work being done with timber where steel and concrete would have been used a few decades ago. I digress. If that forest is allowed to regrow you have a net store of carbon. If you cut the forest down and then graze cattle on it, well you don't have a carbon sink anymore.

The Black Plague killed so many people that farmland was abandoned and reverted back to forest. The next century Europeans introduced new diseases to the Americas decimating the population with similar results of reforestation. This may have exacerbated an already cool period contributing to the Little Ice Age. It's an interesting hypothesis.

I think I understand the theory.

All the carbon that will ever exist already exists.

Trees scrub the carbon from the air but in order for it to return to the air trees have to be burned or otherwise have a chemical reaction. By locking/trapping the carbon in a solid form, you keep it from becoming a gas, and therefore keep it out of the atmosphere.

Basically, we could farm carbon.

[wufan]

All part of the same concept that trees are stores of carbon. So things made of wood are a store of carbon. Plenty of caveats about the energy used to cut down, mill, assemble, etc... There is some terrific work being done with timber where steel and concrete would have been used a few decades ago. I digress. If that forest is allowed to regrow you have a net store of carbon. If you cut the forest down and then graze cattle on it, well you don't have a carbon sink anymore.

Thank you. I misunderstood your original post. We agree that responsible timber management is a communal good.

[wufan]

The Black Plague killed so many people that farmland was abandoned and reverted back to forest. The next century Europeans introduced new diseases to the Americas decimating the population with similar results of reforestation. This may have exacerbated an already cool period contributing to the Little Ice Age. It's an interesting hypothesis.

Not buying this at all on its face. I haven’t looked into, so my take is likely garbage. Initial thoughts are:

1. Im doubtful that the level of trees in Europe could impact the global climate to the degree of the little ice age.

2. The native Americans weren’t deforesting the US and their carbon footprint would have been minimal.

[wufan]

I think I understand the theory.

All the carbon that will ever exist already exists.

Trees scrub the carbon from the air but in order for it to return to the air trees have to be burned or otherwise have a chemical reaction. By locking/trapping the carbon in a solid form, you keep it from becoming a gas, and therefore keep it out of the atmosphere.

Basically, we could farm carbon.

Except all the carbon dioxide that ever existed has not yet been created, so that’s not true.

The way I take it is that if you take down one tree for furniture, then replace it with another, then you are still in taking the same amount of CO2 while having a product that will not release its carbon (in the form of CO2) back to the atmosphere, thus storing it.

OTOH, if you clear forest for farming by burning it, you’ve released all the carbon into the atmosphere and lost the natural carbon stores of trees since now you just have grasslands.

Edited carbon to carbon dioxide to clarify.

[BOBB]

Except all the carbon that ever existed has not yet been created, so that’s not true.

It is fundamentally true. Carbon is an atom. It is never created or destroyed. Carbon Dioxide molecule is brought in by the tree's leaves and separated by photosynthesis. Carbon stored and Oxygen expelled.

We can create a shitton of C02 but we can't create Carbon. That's alchemy.

[Kung Wu]

All the carbon that will ever exist already exists.

And all the carbon going into a tree, will come back out at some point, no matter what is done with the tree.

Trees scrub the carbon from the air ...

Trees don't scrub carbon from the air? They scrub CO2. What is this discussion about, carbon or CO2, I thought it was the former?

[Kung Wu]

The way I take it is that if you take down one tree for furniture, then replace it with another, then you are still in taking the same amount of CO2 while having a product that will not release its carbon back to the atmosphere, thus storing it.

"Storing" it is key -- all you have done is create a carbon battery that leaks carbon slowly over time.

All wood will eventually either be burned or decay. There's just no stopping that. Build all the buildings you want -- those buildings eventually either decay or burn. Carbon in is going to equal carbon out. All you're doing is jacking with the timeline in the short term -- long term there isn't a bit of difference.

[BOBB]

"Storing" it is key -- all you have done is create a carbon battery that leaks carbon slowly over time.

All wood will eventually either be burned or decay. There's just no stopping that. Build all the buildings you want -- those buildings eventually either decay or burn. Carbon in is going to equal carbon out. All you're doing is jacking with the timeline in the short term -- long term there isn't a bit of difference.

Agreed, but you're talking LONG term decay unless it's burned. Even if it's torn down and landfilled it's locked up.