The Republican Primary/Debates/Race

[shockerofandover0943]

Watching these debates puts a horrible feeling in my stomach. It is absolutely sickening to watch these people constantly attacking each other and trying to destroy each other. To go along with the constant stream of left-leaning and thinking moderators, that are directing questions exactly in a way to make these candidates try and destroy each other.

I don't really have a problem with any of the candidates and to watch these people destroy each other is the exact wrong strategy on how to defeat Obama. There needs to be a united conservative front, pushing a united message.

They need to let the American people know that they all plan to remove the horrible economic restrictions that have been put in place by liberals and this administration - ex. - Obamacare, Dodd-Frank. They need to let the nation know that they plan to create millions of jobs by opening up this country's energy reserves. They need to let the nation know that they plan to remove job killing tax burdens and reduce regulations. They need to let the nation know that they plan to cut the size and scale of the federal government.

We can increase revenue in this country by putting millions back to work, not by taxing wealthy people more. High tax rates don't solve our debt problems or unemployment numbers.

Stop attacking each other Republicans! You are all a part of the same line of thinking, and that is that you will better lead this nation than Pres. Obama. Don't play in to the games that interviewers want you to do. Stop destroying your own party and giving the Obama re-election campaign ammo to fire against you in the general. Stop the madness...

[shockerofandover0943]

They have clearly forgotten Reagan's 11th commandment.

[SB Shock]

Problem is there are not many conservatives are up there on the stage so I don't think Reagan's 11th commandment applies. The art of debate is dead in this age of reality TV.

[1979Shocker]

They have clearly forgotten Reagan's 11th commandment.

Of course the Republicans today wouldn't like Reagan. Reagan wanted to get rid of tax loopholes, but Republicans today want to keep them.

Ronald Reagan: Remarks at Northside High School in Atlanta, Georgia
June 6, 1985

We're going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that have allowed some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying 10 percent of his salary, and that's crazy. It's time we stopped it.

[shockerofandover0943]

Obviously they are going to disagree to a certain extent. I'm not saying that they need to all hold hands and get along. However, they are constantly hitting each other with body blows, instead of focusing their blows toward the person they are trying to defeat in a general election.

[SB Shock]

Of course the Republicans today wouldn't like Reagan. Reagan wanted to get rid of tax loopholes, but Republicans today want to keep them.

Red herring argument. The real issue is not whether the government is raising enough money, but whether the government is spending to much.

[SubGod22]

Red herring argument. The real issue is not whether the government is raising enough money, but whether the government is spending to much.

:applouse:

[shockmonster]

Tax loopholes are nothing but crony capitalism. I don't care if wealthy people earn their money but I don't like it when they spend their money and influence to change the rules so they make their money on the back of others who don't have the money to make deals. Lowering taxes on corp. and taking away loopholes would make the system more fair and I thought that this was what Republicans were all about. I don't care if it earns more money or not it's not a red herring argument. Even our cost cutting leader, congressman from Wisconsin is in favor of this.

[Kung Wu]

Tax loopholes are nothing but crony capitalism. I don't care if wealthy people earn their money but I don't like it when they spend their money and influence to change the rules so they make their money on the back of others who don't have the money to make deals. Lowering taxes on corp. and taking away loopholes would make the system more fair and I thought that this was what Republicans were all about. I don't care if it earns more money or not it's not a red herring argument. Even our cost cutting leader, congressman from Wisconsin is in favor of this.

It's idiot congressmen without term limits that vote in the tax loopholes. Before you trash every tax loophole, consider whether or not there should have been a tax on X in the first place. Also consider that many tax loopholes are built in from the very beginning by congressman fighting the original tax, with no external influence. And I will in turn recognize that there are certainly very wealthy special interests creating unfair loopholes as well.

This all goes away with fair/flat tax, doesn't it? You can say that people can cheat in a fair/flat tax system, but they can cheat now as well. I think with a fair/flat tax it's easier to have oversight on cheating.

[SB Shock]

Tax loopholes are nothing but crony capitalism. I don't care if wealthy people earn their money but I don't like it when they spend their money and influence to change the rules so they make their money on the back of others who don't have the money to make deals.

What your railing about is the whole system where politicians are being bought by lobbyist. You know how you change that - elect moral people who can't be bought and will not sacrifice what they believe in for money.

Lowering taxes on corp. and taking away loopholes would make the system more fair and I thought that this was what Republicans were all about. I don't care if it earns more money or not it's not a red herring argument. Even our cost cutting leader, congressman from Wisconsin is in favor of this.

It would be good if they got rid of ALL tax loopholes and made the system fair - ALL. But I suspect that you don't want ALL loopholes gone (i.e. mortgage deduction of interest, dependent deductions, the loophole that actually gives tax refunds for those who don't pay taxes, etc). And then the question who gets to determine what is "fair". If you look changes since 1980, the top 10% went from paying 49% to 70% of all the taxes. I really suspect what you want is more taxes on people that are more successful than you.

Tax revenue by income group for 2008
$380,000+ : 38% (1%)
$159K-380K: 21% (4%)
$ 113K-159K: 11% (5%)
$67K - 113K: 16% (15%)
$33K - 67K: 11%(25%)

In 1980 these values were (population)
$380,000+ : 19% (1%)
$159K-380K: 18% (4%)
$ 113K-159K: 12% (5%)
$67K - 113K: 24% (15%)
$33K - 67K: 20%(25%)

[Maggie]

It's idiot congressmen without term limits that vote in the tax loopholes. Before you trash every tax loophole, consider whether or not there should have been a tax on X in the first place. Also consider that many tax loopholes are built in from the very beginning by congressman fighting the original tax, with no external influence. And I will in turn recognize that there are certainly very wealthy special interests creating unfair loopholes as well.

This all goes away with fair/flat tax, doesn't it? You can say that people can cheat in a fair/flat tax system, but they can cheat now as well. I think with a fair/flat tax it's easier to have oversight on cheating.

There are many arguments for a flat tax: Compliance costs are lower, it’s easier to understand, it doesn’t create a divide-and-conquer dynamic with regard to the tax brackets, it aligns taxpayers’ incentives, etc. But there’s a practical moral argument, too: The tax code is corrupt. Using the tax code as a cookie jar full of special favors for friends and supporters is corrupt. It does not matter that it’s legal; it is immoral. The purpose of taxes is to raise revenue for the government, not to repay political favors or to bribe voters with their own money.

Many of these so-called loopholes are prime examples of this “corruption”. They are not loopholes, as the word is commonly defined – they are result of intentional tax policy.

[Kung Wu]

There are many arguments for a flat tax: Compliance costs are lower, it’s easier to understand, it doesn’t create a divide-and-conquer dynamic with regard to the tax brackets, it aligns taxpayers’ incentives, etc. But there’s a practical moral argument, too: The tax code is corrupt. Using the tax code as a cookie jar full of special favors for friends and supporters is corrupt. It does not matter that it’s legal; it is immoral. The purpose of taxes is to raise revenue for the government, not to repay political favors or to bribe voters with their own money.

Many of these so-called loopholes are prime examples of this “corruption”. They are not loopholes, as the word is commonly defined – they are result of intentional tax policy.

Completely agree. Some situations considered tax loopholes favoring the wealthy aren't really -- although they may have some unintended consequences allowing wealthy people to benefit. Others are precisely a payback for a political favor; complete and transparent corruption. Regardless, it's all big cluster-flip. Fair/flat tax certainly stems the tide of corruption, and rights a lot of the past wrongs. Regardless of conservative or liberal, I don't see how the masses aren't demanding such a system. I believe that would be a very strong place to find common ground, but I don't know what the liberals think about fair/flat tax.

[WuDrWu]

It would be good if they got rid of ALL tax loopholes and made the system fair - ALL. But I suspect that you don't want ALL loopholes gone (i.e. mortgage deduction of interest, dependent deductions, the loophole that actually gives tax refunds for those who don't pay taxes, etc). And then the question who gets to determine what is "fair". If you look changes since 1980, the top 10% went from paying 49% to 70% of all the taxes. I really suspect what you want is more taxes on people that are more successful than you.

Tax revenue by income group for 2008
$380,000+ : 38% (1%)
$159K-380K: 21% (4%)
$ 113K-159K: 11% (5%)
$67K - 113K: 16% (15%)
$33K - 67K: 11%(25%)

In 1980 these values were (population)
$380,000+ : 19% (1%)
$159K-380K: 18% (4%)
$ 113K-159K: 12% (5%)
$67K - 113K: 24% (15%)
$33K - 67K: 20%(25%)

Those are interesting numbers SB. Can you say where these numbers originate?

On a side note, I wish everyone would stop using the term "tax refund" when they are talking about citizens receiving federal money in excess of what they may have paid in through withholdings. If you paid in $500 during a calendar year, and submit your return that calculates a $1500 check coming your way, that may be a $500 refund, but it's a $1000 welfare check or income redistribution check, take your pick. The extra $1000 is NOT A REFUND.

Let's start calling a spade, a spade. I'm tired of hearing about refunds.

[Maggie]

From Kung Wu:

"Completely agree. Some situations considered tax loopholes favoring the wealthy aren't really -- although they may have some unintended consequences allowing wealthy people to benefit. Others are precisely a payback for a political favor; complete and transparent corruption. Regardless, it's all big cluster-flip. Fair/flat tax certainly stems the tide of corruption, and rights a lot of the past wrongs. Regardless of conservative or liberal, I don't see how the masses aren't demanding such a system. I believe that would be a very strong place to find common ground, but I don't know what the liberals think about fair/flat tax."


Liberals reflexively object to the concept of a flat or a fair tax, at least from my own observations, because they believe it is less progressive.

Sorry still trying to get used to the new format.

[shockmonster]

Interesting numbers indeed. Not that I don't believe you but numbers get thrown around a lot. Can you quote your source for verification and entertaining reading?