Government VS Gibson Guitars

[SubGod22]

Gibson: Feds Want Guitar Woodwork Done by Foreign Labor

Gibson Guitar Corp. is claiming the Obama administration wants more of its woodwork done overseas, as a bizarre battle heats up between the government and one of the country's most renowned guitar makers.

The dispute started in 2009, when federal agents raided the company over suspect wood shipments from Madagascar. Gibson took that case to court but has denounced the administration with a vengeance after agents returned late last month to raid several Gibson factories -- this time out of concern that Indian export laws had been violated.

Though some reports on the dispute have cited environmental concerns, court documents suggest the latest battle boils down to a simple, non-environmental question -- which country is working on the wood?

Gibson's CEO has said repeatedly that the only reason his company is in trouble is because U.S. workers are completing work on guitar fingerboards in the United States. In an interview earlier this week, CEO Henry Juszkiewicz claimed that the U.S. government even suggested Gibson's troubles would disappear if the company used foreign labor.

[wu_shizzle]

Is this the fate of vocal critics of the regime?

I hear that Martin has escaped scrutiny because of their support for the DNC...

[SB Shock]

Is this the fate of vocal critics of the regime?

CNN even has a story on it.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2011/09/02/dnt-mattingly-gibson-guitar-raid.cnn

[RoyalShock]

From another article about this, I seem to recall the issue is India's gov't requires that wood to be finished there before it's exported. The U.S. is just agreeing to enforce that on behalf of India, presumably to maintain good trade relations.

Did I get the wrong impression?

[rjl]

Gibson is under investigation for importing wood in violation of the Lacey Act, which prohibits the interstate trade of illegal and endangered raw materials.

Ebony and rosewood are endangered trees.

Gibson feels that the loophole, then, is to have the guitar manufactured overseas and then imported to the US, therefore no longer being a raw material but rather a finished product.

The Lacey Act was enacted by McKinley in the year 1900. It is the Department of Justice's responsibility to enforce the laws enacted by the U.S. Congress and signed into law by the presidents.

These are things that Fox News doesn't tell you because Fox News wants to paint any Democrat in the most negative light only; anything "fair and balanced" would have surely supplied these most relevant facts in a story on the subject.

These are reasons why you are ill informed about the world around you, SubGod, and these are probably the reasons why you are afraid to venture outside of your safe cocoons of propaganda distributors such as Fox News and Newsmax: you are afraid of challenging your beliefs in any substantive way, and would rather be willfully ignorant.

[Maggie]

Gibson is under investigation for importing wood in violation of the Lacey Act, which prohibits the interstate trade of illegal and endangered raw materials.

Ebony and rosewood are endangered trees.

Gibson feels that the loophole, then, is to have the guitar manufactured overseas and then imported to the US, therefore no longer being a raw material but rather a finished product.

The Lacey Act was enacted by McKinley in the year 1900. It is the Department of Justice's responsibility to enforce the laws enacted by the U.S. Congress and signed into law by the presidents.

These are things that Fox News doesn't tell you because Fox News wants to paint any Democrat in the most negative light only; anything "fair and balanced" would have surely supplied these most relevant facts in a story on the subject.

These are reasons why you are ill informed about the world around you, SubGod, and these are probably the reasons why you are afraid to venture outside of your safe cocoons of propaganda distributors such as Fox News and Newsmax: you are afraid of challenging your beliefs in any substantive way, and would rather be willfully ignorant.

Huh. Interesting. I take it you are an expert on the Lacy Act and the history of its application. And the charges against Gibson. Enlighten me. Please. But try to avoid ad hominem argumentation. Also, get your facts in order.

By the way, I just got news that I have been invited to a talk, at a friends (two actually) house in New Jersey, that deals with gay rights and the status of same in New Jersey. It will cost me $200 to attend - will that help you keep the personal attacks to yourself?

[SubGod22]

Think what you wish rjl. I post articles I think are interesting or may spur some talk. I post a lot from Fox because they have interesting stories. CNN has some. WSJ is one I read quite a bit as well. I read some HufPo from time to time. Also CATO. I've posted stories from all. Fox News produces more interesting articles than the others. Just beacuse you refuse to debate or talk about any of it doesn't mean you sit higher than anyone else. I'm always open to other points of view and always have been. I've stated that many times. You refuse to ever engage in any discussions so why should I care what your opinion of me or anyone else is? You have no leg to stand on in these discussions since you only chime in to tell us how we're all abunch of sheep and blah blah blah blah. Contribute once in a while and I may care what you have to say. At this point, you bring little to any of these discussions.

The DOJ was quoted saying the issue was Indian law and Gibson was bringing in sawn wood. Gibson says the Indians work the wood and the final touches are put on over here. I believe that is legal. If the DOJ has since came out with another statement I have not seen it. I may look into that later if I get the time to do so since no link has been provided.

It's nice to see you make somewhat of a half hearted effort in this case. I look forward to maybe seeing you "educate us poor sheep" in the future. Sadly, I doubt you'll do that.

I really don't care if you despise Fox. Independent poll after independent poll has shown them to be less biased than the other news networks and that's why I read it. But I'm ALWAYS open to other sites and points of view. Why don't you go ahead and recommend a few and I'll check them tomorrow. I also feel that the Fox website is easier to navigate than many of the others. When at work, that matters.

[Aargh]

I've never been able to afford a Gibson - except for the 1958 Les Paul I got in trade for doing some work. Now I know why they are so expensive if Gibby is still using ebony and rosewood. That stuff became nearly illegal to use 30 or 40 years ago. It is so rare by now that the prices have to be absolutely insane. You've go to clear a lot of rain forest to even find one of those trees any more.

The main reason to use rosewood and ebony on a guitar is purely aesthetic. Maple and spruce have more than enough strength to hold a neck straight and the guitar isn't going to have a noticeable difference in sound based on the wood that's used in the neck.

A rosewood neck and an ebony fingerboard (a layer of wood about 1/4" think on the surface of the neck) used to be standard. That's what I've got on my 1957 Guild. The maple fingerboard on my Fender Strat is wearing perfectly well after nearly 20 years.

Maple produces a "blonde" fingerboard. Ebony produces a "black" fingerboard. I think there's another wood that's used in current guitars to create a "black" fingerboard, but I don't recall the name right now. I don't believe it's the same wood that's used for black baseball bats.

[SB Shock]

Gibson is under investigation for importing wood in violation of the Lacey Act, which prohibits the interstate trade of illegal and endangered raw materials.

isn't the government saying that they are using wood from India that has not finished by Indian workers therefore it is illegal. This is not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department's interpretation of a law in India? The Indian law is not about protecting endangered raw material, but jobs?

The material can be imported from India legally just as long as all the work with the material is completed in India.

[Maggie]

The Lacey Act, is a law that could make you a federal criminal for violating any foreign law - regardless of whether you knew of the foreign regulations. rjl is wrong to assert “Gibson feels that the loophole, then, is to have the guitar manufactured overseas and then imported to the US, therefore no longer being a raw material but rather a finished product”. The wood is imported and the guitars are manufactured in the United States. It is my understanding that wood is commonly used to create fretboards (but Aargh would know more about that than I would). It is also used in other instruments like pianos. In fact, most, if not all, guitar companies source wood from the same place – which makes the focus on Gibson only, shall we say, interesting.

At this point, Gibson maintains that it complied with the relevant law and, has suggested that the feds are using an overly broad law to intimidate the company. I am not an expert on the Lacey Act so I will not comment on the specific provisions that were allegedly violated. What I can say with a fair amount of certainty is that the Gibson official has a point when he complains about overly broad laws.

This particular case is emblematic of a much larger public-policy problem that a growing number of high-profile organizations and individuals, on the right and the left, have been highlighting. It is often called “over-criminalization,” but it might as well be thrown in with the problem of over-regulation and federal overreach. Unfortunately, even the most well-intentioned criminal laws can have serious unintended consequences - for federalism, for liberty, and for our economy. The problem is especially acute when those laws have become so numerous and poorly worded that they fail to provide Americans fair notice of what conduct could make them a federal prisoner. Fuzzy, leave-the-details-to-be-sorted-out-by-the-courts legislation is attractive to the Congressman who wants credit for addressing a national problem but does not have the time (or perhaps the votes) to grapple with the nittygritty.

[SubGod22]

After Gibson Raid, Other Guitar Makers at Risk of Breaking Law

According to the Indian government, fingerboard "blanks" -- the wood that will eventually become a guitar's fretboard -- are legal to export.

"Fingerboard is a finished product and not wood in primary form," Vinod Srivastava, India's deputy director-general of foreign trade, stipulated in a letter dated Sept. 16. "The foreign trade policy of the government of India allows free export of such finished products of wood."

The U.S. government disagrees. In its affidavit to search Gibson, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service considers fingerboard blanks to be raw materials, not finished product -- illegal to export from India and, therefore, illegal to import into the United States.

What's more, according to the complaint, the Gibson wood was imported with an incorrect tariff code, which was off by one digit from the correct code. Luthiers Mercantile International, the company that imports the wood for Gibson, claims that was a simple clerical error. The difference in the codes refers to the thickness of the wood -- more than or less than six millimeters in thickness.

Since the government raided Gibson, Luthiers Mercantile has been unable to import any Indian rosewood or ebony. As it is a major supplier to guitar makers across the nation, it means the companies can't get wood either. Berkowitz said now he would be afraid to use it anyway.

"One fine from Fish and Wildlife would shut me down and bankrupt me," he said.

[RoyalShock]

And people dispute that our federal government doesn't wreak of arrogance?

In what world does the US think they know Indian law better than the Indians?

This one, apparently.

[shockall]

Get used to the results of all the new regulations.

Examples:

1. Clean air energy regulations: Will and does result in increased customer cost and will result in brown outs in the near future as coal plants are shut down.
2. Medical costs: Does anyone think medical costs will go down or services go up with Obamacare?

3. Financial regulations: Will cost the consumer more to use his own money?
4. Financial Regs: Can't pay your real estate taxes any more with a credit card without paying an $8 fee.

5. Clean air energy regs: Just wait....soon will be a large additional tax imposed on highway fuels (gas, diesel, LP).