Power of praise in a child's education...not so powerful

[Anthroshock]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113347007

Fascinating, fascinating new research on how unfettered praise and lack of competition makes school children challenge themselves less.

Make sure to read the book excerpt farther down the page.

Remember...this is not the politics forum. :D

[ShockBand]

I just bought the book that is the topic of the article, NurtureShock, and I'm a few pages in. Very good read so far, and gives a lot to think about. The part I've read so far about praise, is partially about unfettered praise, but also about how the praise is targeted. What they say happens is that when you praise intelligence (You're so smart) you plant the notion in their heads that they can't fail because they're supposed to be smart, so as a result don't seek challenge. If you instead praise effort (You did a great job on that test), that same reluctance towards challenges isn't as great.

Its very similar to my belief that you should scold a child's actions, not their person or personality. I want my kids to know that even when I do not like their actions and give a consequence, I still, and will always, love them without condition.

[Anthroshock]

I just bought the book that is the topic of the article, NurtureShock, and I'm a few pages in. Very good read so far, and gives a lot to think about. The part I've read so far about praise, is partially about unfettered praise, but also about how the praise is targeted. What they say happens is that when you praise intelligence (You're so smart) you plant the notion in their heads that they can't fail because they're supposed to be smart, so as a result don't seek challenge. If you instead praise effort (You did a great job on that test), that same reluctance towards challenges isn't as great.

Its very similar to my belief that you should scold a child's actions, not their person or personality. I want my kids to know that even when I do not like their actions and give a consequence, I still, and will always, love them without condition.

Thanks for breaking it down. I recently found out that I am going to be a father and my attitude on many things has changed greatly since.

[Maggie]

I saw this author on television, maybe a month ago, and I think he made some good points. And I would love to read what you think about his book. But I believe there is something else amiss. This is a little off topic but the subject of the book got me thinking.

In my opinion, some of the problems in education, etc. are fairly elementary but I am not sure what the solution is: Simply put, American students are lazy on a scale that is staggering. It's a laziness that starts early and develops year by year as promotions (just stay alive and you'll get through) allow students to not only progress from kindergarden to twelfth grade, but do so with a solid "B" average (generally speaking – I am sure there are school systems which are exceptions). It's a laziness reinforced by the extraordinarily low academic demands of even elite universities. Frankly, I studied half as hard in high school as in college, half as hard in college as in law school, and half as hard in law school as I worked my first year in the "real world."

The problem appears to be cultural, and no amount of wonkery or financial aid is going to solve it. Few elements of American society are as "soft" as academia, where standards seem to be lowered every year to make sure that everyone can “succeed”. Yet failure is only magnified. I would say no part of American society is "harder" than the armed forces — yet kids who may not have succeeded in school show judgment, initiative, and courage that would boggle the minds of academics who are convinced that "self-esteem" somehow builds character. It's almost as if real challenges build character while coddling destroys it, go figure – which appeared to be part of the point the author of this book was trying to make – but I can’t say that for certain.

Anyway, it's ominous to see this "soft America" drifting into the marketplace. Recently, I was approached by an earnest student who said, "I'd love to work with you, but I only want to work nine to five." My response? "Good to know. I hear Wal-Mart is hiring."

[SubGod22]

Schools don't do enough to challenge students. One of my problems when I got to college were my horrible study habits. I found school to be way too easy growing up and never had to work hard or push myself like others I knew. It was pretty easy to coast through with no worries of being ineligible for sports. Nobody ever pushed me and that includes my parents. I'm not sure they realized how things were going since my grades were always pretty decent. They thought I could do better but never really pushed me to strive for that. Neither did teachers or anyone else.

I've changed my attitude since then and regret not pushing myself harder and wish I'd have had others around me to help push me to do more and be better. And I can guarantee that when I have kids they'll at least be pushed by me to work harder and not let their potential and intellect go to waste as I did to some extent.

[WuDrWu]

I recently found out that I am going to be a father and my attitude on many things has changed greatly since.

Congratulations. You will NEVER know a greater responsibility or love on this earth.

:good:

[WuDrWu]

Has anyone looked into the work being done by Newt Gingrich and Al Sharpton?

I have only seen snipets, but it reminds me that even with all that is wrong, in this country, all is still possible (at least today).

I found it more than interesting that Rev. Sharpton was the one to point out that in the school they were visiting (a pilot school and I'm sorry I don't remember where) that the kids #1 reason for doing well was the discipline instilled by the school. They knew if they fought or screwed up, they were out and back to the old public, dangerous school they used to attend.

We have allowed the inmates to run the asylum for far too long. We owe it to our children to take back the schools and manage and lead like adults and stop trying to be all things to all people and friends to children.

We need leaders. We need parents. We need guts.



"Walk middle road.... *splat*......squish like grape."

[ShockBand]

Yes, Anthro, congratulations! Your life will never be the same through all the wonderful, good, bad, and ugly.

As with the latter, my two and a half year old, along with his two cousins, took opportunity yesterday to cause mayhem. My sister in law (and daycare provider) was loading up the three boys so she could take the oldest to preschool. Just as they got in the garage the phone rang, and she went back in for just a few seconds to answer it. Normally the boys would take this opportunity to ride bikes and trikes around in the empty side of the garage as is normal on bad weather days. But no, yesterday they got into the tool chest, found three hammers, and proceeded to go to "work" on the Mazda. 30 seconds and 40 dings later there were three boys in mama's/auntie's crosshairs. I half expected to find three boys on the curb yesterday with "Boys For Sale - CHEAP" draped around their necks. But I still of course love 'em all. Years from now this story will be told and retold and it will be hilarious, because, after all, the car is just an object.

I hear you Maggie and Sub, and I'll share my thoughts as I get further through the book. I will say as a teacher of middle schoolers that yes they can be very lazy, but they can work very hard too. I will say a fair number of my parents seem to be more obsessed with grades than learning, though. I've tried my entire career to push the idea that its better (especially in middle school) to get a C in a class where you learn a ton and get pushed than to get an A in a class where you gain little or nothing. In my undergrad work, the very best class I had in terms of how much I learned, was the ed stats class that I got a C in.

We're too zeroed in on the grades and test scores right now in this country, and the learning is taking a hit because of it, IMHO. If the "game" is about scores, people will inevitably game the system to their advantage, its human nature.

[Maggie]

ShockBand,

I think what you are saying is reasonable and, perhaps, I was a little harsh….perhaps…and then again, maybe not. On a certain level, a parent’s obsession about “grades” and “test scores”, while important to a degree, says a lot more about the parents then the children. And I do agree with you about the tendency to teach to a test and “game” a test – there is a lot of incentive for educators to go this route. One thing this culture doesn’t do is foster independent critical thinking – which is part of learning to learn so to speak.

When you finish the book, let us know what you think – I am curious. The issue broached by the author is sort of a sensitive one with a lot teachers, parents and administrators – because it, on its face, appears to challenge conventional wisdom and sometimes, I suppose, the natural inclinations of the parent. But you would have more direct insight into that than I would.

P.S. Your little crew sounds like a handful.