Some good news

[kcshocker11]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2009-01-29-smart-grid-energy_N.htm

This is way overdue and should save consumers $

President Obama has made modernizing the nation's vast power network a key piece of his $819 billion economic stimulus plan, passed by the House Wednesday. Last weekend he called for the installation of 3,000 miles of transmission lines to carry renewable energy to population centers and 40 million smart electric meters in homes. The House bill sets aside $11 billion to help finance the investments.

Obama's endorsement of a sweeping upgrade to the century-old grid is jolting an industry already on a roll. Top power companies and lawmakers lately have called for an up to $1 trillion nationwide backbone electric grid.

Meantime, utilities and venture-capital firms are bucking the credit crisis and pouring billions of dollars into the "smart grid."

8)

[BenWSU]

Put a wind turbine in front of Obama & Biden`s mouth`s.

[kcshocker11]

Put a wind turbine in front of Obama & Biden`s mouth`s.

Not enough wind generated but el Rushbo, you get massive wind and a hugh source of natural gas! Then we could harvest the fat and use it for fuel oil! :D 8)

[BenWSU]

You`ll have to clean the blades once a week due to cigar smoke buildup. Atleast youre creating jobs.

[rayc]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2009-01-29-smart-grid-energy_N.htm

There is so much so wrong in that article that it should be labeled "to be read for amusemet only".

[dregn]

It is about time. All those Kansas windfarms you see only put a small fraction of what they produce back into the power grid because of the age of the system. We'll be able to increase the efficiency of producing power with the infrastructure already in place.

[RoyalShock]

Out here by Buhler a new substation and high-capacity lines have been constructed with the 2nd phase of running lines to Salina (presumably the wind farm west of there) still to come.

And all without government "stimulus".

[rayc]

One thing that everyone should remember - wind and solar represent fuel, NOT capacity. That will remain an indisputable fact until a reliable source of energy storage is developed. Yet that never deters "experts" from calculating the benefits due to reduced future capacity requirements by using either wind or solar. Indeed, without the claimed capacity reductions they could show no positive cost benefits at all for wind or solar.

At the current time wind is the most expensive and the most unreliable source of fuel. The more wind energy you use, the higher your electric bill will be.

It really is that simple. As long as you understand that and still want it before its time then all is well.

[dregn]

It doesn't matter what you construct locally, it's what is put in the national grid. As long as the government controls it, it needs to be updated. I'm all about not having government run it, but it does and it needs to keep it updated to keep it efficient.

[rayc]

There is no national grid - that is all a myth.

[kcshocker11]

There is no national grid - that is all a myth.

Its amazing how USA Today will just fabricate a story. Thank God SN has members like Ray to see through it. :whistle: 8)

[rayc]

Well, it is an area I do have some expertise and experience with. You can believe that or not as you wish, I really don't care. :)

Anyone having the least bit of professional experience in the electrical utility/generation field, chuckeled at his glowing report of what appears to be cutting edge technology, things like "smart meters" that have been in use, off the shelf, for maybe the last 50 years or so - or perhaps you were impressed with the novel use of capacitors on power lines, a standard for maybe the past 90-100 years. And on-peak/off-peak billing - trust me, you want NO part of that, and it's nothing new or unique, etc., etc.

I don't think the author fabricated a story, he/she doesn't appear to have enough knowledge of the field to do that. His research probably consisted of reading a couple of sales brochures, hearing a few buzz words and then writing the story from that. Not that unusual these days. :cry:

If you are not aware, I'm a proponent of both wind and solar energy, but it is way to early in their development for anyone to seriously believe they are anything but a long term solution. If you (generic you, not personal) want to spend money on them now thinking they will help, go right ahead as they can currently function as a fuel. If so, you will pay more for your electricity, you will have much less system reliability and I have no doubt you will believe the talking heads who will gloss over your poor service reliability and higher cost by telling you how much worse "it would have been". Just a sign of the times I guess.

A national power grid does not currently exist! The one trillion dollars or so would be for the construction of one. That is over $3,000 from every man, woman and child in this country! Just how much more debt can we incur?

[dregn]

If a grid on a national scale does not exist how can a failure in one city take out the entire north east region?

Why do those who are directly involved with the building of wind farms who you've know since you were kids discuss the lack of updated technology that allows us to actually use all the energy that is being produced? Or as an employee of the power companies are they being lied to?

Not saying you're not telling the truth, just asking why what i've come across does not agree with some of what you say.

[rayc]

dregn

If a grid on a national scale does not exist how can a failure in one city take out the entire north east region?

That’s a good question dregn. If we had a national grid, that blackout might have well been nation wide and not regional – just one of many aspects of having a national grid they don’t like to talk about. There are, however, several regional grids one of which failed and you noted the result. But I doubt that even these are true “grids” in the sense most of us envision with, ultimately, a central control point.

I suspect the confusion is in the understanding of the term “national grid”. We are a nation covered by many electrical grids, but we do not have a national grid, nor is one necessary IMHO.

An electrical grid is not a trivial item as it is normally treated like in the press. It is a very complex entity, costly to build, costly to maintain and costly to operate. At its very simplest, in the context of this discussion, it is your local electrical utility company. It would take a book length posting here to even begin to relate the problems in connecting all of the nation’s utility companies with their thousands of generators into a true grid, and then throw in a couple hundred thousand individual wind generators – wow. It is not a technology issue; we’ve had the technology for at least the last 50 years to do it. The estimated cost of a trillion dollars may be low.

I am getting a little lengthy in this response, let me just close by saying that the Utility executives love using the term/concept of a national grid as they can envision getting their entire system rebuilt at the U.S. taxpayer expense rather than at the local ratepayer’s expense (bet that wouldn’t be reflected in the rates though). The politicians and media like the neat buzz word that nobody really understands even though they are really talking about a means of wheeling energy from a point of excess capacity to a point in need. That can certainly be done with a national grid, but it can also be done without one.

Why do those who are directly involved with the building of wind farms who you've know since you were kids discuss the lack of updated technology that allows us to actually use all the energy that is being produced? Or as an employee of the power companies are they being lied to?

It is not a lack of updated technology, it’s an absence of technology. We simply do not have an efficient means of large scale energy storage. When that is developed wind farms will represent real capacity and wind energy will become a very viable and powerful force in the energy industry.

As far as using all that is being produced, that is dependent on the contractual arrangements between the wind power producer and the Utility Company they sell to, not technology constraints (a general statement, there can be technology constraints if it’s a small utility or co-op buying the power – but this leads to a discussion way beyond the scope of the question).

Not saying you're not telling the truth, just asking why what i've come across does not agree with some of what you say.

I suspect most of what you’ve come across is from the MSM who know less about it than you probably already do, and they apparently do NO research for their articles.

[ABC]

Glad to see some expertise on the issue.

Solar, wind, ethanol and bio fuels are more expensive than fossil fuels.