Obamas energy plan

[SpanglerFan316]

Depending on wind and solar to be THE source for everything is stupid as well.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[SubGod22]

So taking one sentence out of the entire argument forces that sort of response from you?

rjl seems to have taken the stance of all the others that argue against more drilling so I figured he things we should ignore increasing production and only focus on alternatives that have yet to be proven on a wide scale. Was that really hard to pick up from my response, or did you just read the one sentence and formulate your oh so clever response? :roll:

All say what I say everytime this topic comes up. We need to pursue all forms of energy be it wind, solar, hydro, nuclear or oil/gas.

[rayc]

Subgod22:

… Depending on wind and solar to be THE source for everything is stupid as well. …

I agree 100% with your statement. It is not only stupid, but with our current technology it is impossible as well.

[kcshocker11]

Isnt this fun!

[SpanglerFan316]

This is nothing compared to what will happen if the NCAA robs WSU's VB team again. That will cause war!!!!! :-x

[WuDrWu]

This is nothing compared to what will happen if the NCAA robs WSU's VB team again. That will cause war!!!!! :-x

Thanks Spangler.....I had almost purged that from my memory..... :(

[SubGod22]

This is nothing compared to what will happen if the NCAA robs WSU's VB team again. That will cause war!!!!! :-x

Now that's something we can agree on

[rjl]

The energy independence that is of paramount importance is American energy independence. We cannot solve the world’s energy problems until we have ours well in hand. Keeping your head in the clouds and hoping for relief is not going to help solve our oil import problem.

When it comes to buying oil, there is no such thing as an American citizen.

I mean, I can tell you read my post. You quoted it and everything. But you obviously didn't understand it.

Energy independence by increased drilling is a MYTH. Increased drilling will only be fully available by the year 2027, by which time global demand will have increased by 30%, and the oil it produces will be for sale on the GLOBAL market, not domestic.

What don't you understand about that? And I'm calling for you to disprove it, because so far all you've done is spout more anti liberal rhetoric and made yourself a fool.

[rjl]

So taking one sentence out of the entire argument forces that sort of response from you?

rjl seems to have taken the stance of all the others that argue against more drilling so I figured he things we should ignore increasing production and only focus on alternatives that have yet to be proven on a wide scale. Was that really hard to pick up from my response, or did you just read the one sentence and formulate your oh so clever response? :roll:

All say what I say everytime this topic comes up. We need to pursue all forms of energy be it wind, solar, hydro, nuclear or oil/gas.

What one sentence are you talking about? The one where, yet again, you give uncited sources that contradict the realistic ones I give? Yeah. I'm calling that out. Because you've done it before, and I'm just wondering where you're getting this information from. I'd like to see it. I'd like to know who it's coming from. Because that short of a timeline to see the fruits of increased drilling flies in the face of everything else that's readily available which goes into detail about the situation. And if we are to have a legitimate discussion on the matter, lets all deal with facts here.

There are energy alternatives that are quite available now that would reduce the US's demand for oil. How about not driving vehicles that get 10 mpg? There's a start. Not too hard to come up with that one.

Heck, we can even achieve biodiesel relatively easily with our current infrastructure. Electric cars aren't unproven either, yet you act like it's all some strange voodoo we don't know about.

Let me repeat: The Stone Age didn't end because they ran out of stones. If we are truly the most advanced nation on the planet, now or ever, why are we so stuck on using oil? Why do we want to drill for more when it will do nothing to solve our problem? Why totally screw over our planet to save 4 cents a gallon on gas?

No one has offered a logical explanation for why. And no, "Well, we've got to do something" doesn't fly.

[SubGod22]

Biofuels will up the price of food. It gets us away from some oil but also isn't as efficient. Electric cars are wonderful I guess but aren't right around the corner with available use. A lot of work has to be done to make widespread use of them available.

I'm not against using any of those, but nothing on a grand scale is going to get us away from oil like you want in a reasonable time frame. Oil is going to be necessary for a while as other things get developed to the point of being readily available.

I'll continue to say we need to use all our resources and at this point oil is one of them.

[SpanglerFan316]

I'll continue to say we need to use all our resources and at this point oil is one of them.

Let me follow your line of thought to a logical conclusion. Children have a high caloric density. If "we need to use all our resources", then ..... :lol:

Within reason, I agree with you. Off-shore drilling can be increased with minimal economic and environmental costs in certain cases. In other cases, such drilling is just dumb. Oil is a finite resource and will eventually be gone. We need to bite the bullet and develop new sources of energy in the near future.

[SB Shock]

Let me repeat: The Stone Age didn't end because they ran out of stones. If we are truly the most advanced nation on the planet, now or ever, why are we so stuck on using oil? Why do we want to drill for more when it will do nothing to solve our problem? Why totally screw over our planet to save 4 cents a gallon on gas?

No one has offered a logical explanation for why. And no, "Well, we've got to do something" doesn't fly.

It's simple answer. Oil even at present day's prices is still the cheapest alternative out there. There are other options, but either they are blocked (i.e. Nuclear) or they are still to expensive or the risk/reward is to small (wind).

Another thing is our politicians are not the brightest and are not very forward looking.

[SubGod22]

Spangler, it sounds as if we aren't really that far off in our thinking. We MUST develop alternative energies/fuel/whatever and in a manor of which it is effective, efficient and not going to cost us tons of money to use. In the short term we need oil as it works and is cost effective. Wind has a place at some point, but right now isn't going to get it done and may never be a major player. That'll depend on technological advances.

We do need to start building more efficiently and incorporating things into these structures. We need to develop more fuel efficient vehicles which is very doable. When cars of the 30's were getting 20+ MPG and things haven't improved should say something.

I just can't agree with people on either side that thinks it has to be one or the other. Oil is not the only answer but will always be a part of our society and life. But that's no reason not to look into other things so we cut back on our consumption of it. But until those other options are really available on a wide scale, we have to have oil and we can drill our own. Nothing will be solved on either side of this in the next 10-20 years. Use what we have now and improve everything for the future.

[SB Shock]

Spangler, it sounds as if we aren't really that far off in our thinking. We MUST develop alternative energies/fuel/whatever and in a manor of which it is effective, efficient and not going to cost us tons of money to use.

Think about it - what would happen if all new houses had to use supplement their energy use through geo-thermal energy (i.e. geo-thermal heat pumps), solar energy, requirements for insulation. The electric companies would be like the city of wichita who raised their rates since not enough water was used this summer and they had a short fall in revenue.

[rjl]

Some of the cheapest and most effective producers of biofuel are algae, so food production isn't necessarily tied to them. The main point of something like biodiesel isn't that it's a long term solution, as in we'll be using it hundreds of years from now, it's that it's something we can use relatively easily now, with a lot of the same gas-station infrastructure, and with no more than a switch from petrol to diesel engines in our cars.

Long term might be pure electric, air, whatever.

Yes, food production is tied to ethanol, but ethanol is a totally overhyped fraud in its current incarnation; something the major auto manufacturers can do without much effort and without changing what was the core of their sales just to say "hey, we're doing something!"

And yes, right now oil is the cheapest fuel there is. But it's not going to be for very long. When global demand increases 30% or more within 22 years (1.5 Billion Chinese are just now starting to really buy cars), I would much rather the United States spent its calories on finding an alternative than keep looking for just one more fix, leaving us totally screwed in the near future.

My point is that the amount of oil available in the off-shore areas currently prohibited and the ANWR aren't enough to drop the price we pay at the pump enough to warrant ripping up some of the last untouched areas on this planet, especially considering we're facing a not-so-distant future where oil cannot possibly be our main fuel if we want to maintain our present quality of life. If we're going to have to move on, might as well do it now.