HBC Machinist Vote to Strike

[DUShock]

Too much or too little is a good, or is it, a bad thing????


I get all of this kaison sh-tuff mixed up!

Where have I come from?

Which direction am I headed?

I forget!

To me, the only thing for certain on this board is...

Go Shocks!!!!

[Ixiah]

I'm not going to get involved in this thread.
I'm not going to get involved in this thread.
I'm not going to get involved in this thread.

Less then 10 years old and helping with the union strike against Boeing back in the 70's. 8)

[t7017s]

Sad thing is... If what I'm hearing about them striking for 8 weeks is true, then it looks like when they do get a contract it will be over at the point in time they recoup the money they lost striking for 8 weeks. I really wonder if any of these folks have even thought about that?

[NCAABound]

I'm not saying you can't blame management for poor business decisions. I meant I hate hearing union employees blame management for all of their problems. In particular...the poster who said 90% of management are POS. This "poor me" and "us against them" mentality is stupid.

That's what I meant when saying "blaming management is idiotic." Management and production are equal in terms of necessity. You have to have skilled workers build products...but those products would be essentially worthless if people didn't sell them, service them, advertise, etc.

And Spangler...I agree with you about GM and Ford only looking at next quarters profit. That's why Koch is better positioned IMO. They don't have to answer to Wall Street each quarter. GM and Ford may finally be realizing they have to take a long term approach to be competitive....but I'll believe it when I see it.

[7hottamales]

Sad thing is... If what I'm hearing about them striking for 8 weeks is true, then it looks like when they do get a contract it will be over at the point in time they recoup the money they lost striking for 8 weeks. I really wonder if any of these folks have even thought about that?

Excellent point. The break even point for the union almost guarantees that both sides will lose in this deal if it lasts even a few weeks.

[rjl]

Pass the popcorn!

I was thinking the same thing. This thread is fun. I'm waiting for someone to really defend GM or Ford or another of the other big US companies who only look at next quarters profit.

That would probably be a bad example since none of those companies make a profit and are prime examples of how piss poor management and unions can run a industry into the ground.

While unions are certainly partly to blame, you cannot tell me that the executive branch of Ford and GM are not mostly to blame for the mess they're currently in.

I mean, have you seen the crap they've been producing for years now? And waiting for the bottom of the SUV market to fall out instead of proactively getting ready for the turn in the market that 90% of everyone saw coming is only the tip of the iceberg.

Poorly run, poorly visioned.

[rrshock]

Sad thing is... If what I'm hearing about them striking for 8 weeks is true, then it looks like when they do get a contract it will be over at the point in time they recoup the money they lost striking for 8 weeks. I really wonder if any of these folks have even thought about that?

Excellent point. The break even point for the union almost guarantees that both sides will lose in this deal if it lasts even a few weeks.

Where I work, we can't strike, so the company wins at first, but we get back pay in the end, so I guess it comes out in a wash (at least that's what they say). What they are doing at HBC will end up costing them more than if they just continued to work and worked out a deal as they went. So that is a very good point.

Since my employer is a federally (I guess) controlled company and has to do with interstate commerce, the President can put us back to work the second we were to go on strike, so it is pointless. Like I mentioned earlier, some of the guys I work with were without a contract for 3 years. They will get back pay checks next month, because their contract included pay increases on the years that they were without one. I don't see why HBC can't do the same.

The Machinists union is a whole lot different than what I am used to also. They seem to be working so that they can strike. At least that the way it appears to me.


And let me ask everyone a question about other unions. How do you all feel about the unions that represent Police Officers and Fire Fighters? Do they go too far as well when asking for new contracts?

[SB Shock]

Pass the popcorn!

I was thinking the same thing. This thread is fun. I'm waiting for someone to really defend GM or Ford or another of the other big US companies who only look at next quarters profit.

That would probably be a bad example since none of those companies make a profit and are prime examples of how piss poor management and unions can run a industry into the ground.

While unions are certainly partly to blame, you cannot tell me that the executive branch of Ford and GM are not mostly to blame for the mess they're currently in.

I believe that's exactly what I said.

[SB Shock]

Sad thing is... If what I'm hearing about them striking for 8 weeks is true, then it looks like when they do get a contract it will be over at the point in time they recoup the money they lost striking for 8 weeks. I really wonder if any of these folks have even thought about that?

Excellent point. The break even point for the union almost guarantees that both sides will lose in this deal if it lasts even a few weeks.

I have heard that there will be a mandatory minimum of 30 day cooling off period because the union walked out while negotiations were still on-going.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Pass the popcorn!

I was thinking the same thing. This thread is fun. I'm waiting for someone to really defend GM or Ford or another of the other big US companies who only look at next quarters profit.

That would probably be a bad example since none of those companies make a profit and are prime examples of how piss poor management and unions can run a industry into the ground.

While unions are certainly partly to blame, you cannot tell me that the executive branch of Ford and GM are not mostly to blame for the mess they're currently in.

I mean, have you seen the crap they've been producing for years now? And waiting for the bottom of the SUV market to fall out instead of proactively getting ready for the turn in the market that 90% of everyone saw coming is only the tip of the iceberg.

Poorly run, poorly visioned.

Can't argue with the lack of vision.

I'd add though that the reason so many Americans have stopped buying cars made by the American car companies (at least until the recent gas increases) has more to do with the lack of quality/performance/reliability of the product rather than a lack of vision by the management. That falls on labor. Sadly, the American car I drive is probably the last American car I will ever buy.

[rjl]

While unions are certainly partly to blame, you cannot tell me that the executive branch of Ford and GM are not mostly to blame for the mess they're currently in.

I believe that's exactly what I said.

Wasn't speaking to you specifically, but rather the hypothetical "you".

Sorry for any confusion.

[martymoose]

I can only read so much about this... In watching the news last night, I found it interesting that with news cameras pointed at them, the "union" employees yelled at, and made actions that could be borderline assault to non union employees. Some people are members of the union, some aren't. If they aren't part of the union, just leave them alone. Why do union members feel the need to bully people those not a part of the union? If they want to strike because they feel a 4% raise isn't good enough (4% is probably higher than the average job in Wichita), then strike, but leave everyone else alone... My 3 year old daughter acts with more civility and common sense than the idiots I saw on TV last night.

They interviewed some red neck with half his teeth talking about how he's doing this for the American worker and everyone should be thanking him. Seriously, give me a break...You didn't graduate college (maybe not high school) but hourly probably make more than double what the average adult in Wichita makes.

[SubGod22]

And what they're doing is going to have an imediate negative impact on the local economy. 10-12 million? That's gonna hurt a lot of businesses.

[martymoose]

Here is what I find interesting...and where a college education might help a number of the union voters:

Let's say a union employee makes $60,000 per year. That means his monthly gross income would be $5,000. Let's say you spend the next month out in the heat 24/7 striking and get them to knock off that giant sum of $11 per month increase for insurance premiums over the next 3 years. And by some miracle they agree to give you a 5% raise rather than the 4% offered.

You now have an extra $2361.66 to put in your pocket over the next 3 years that HBC otherwise wasn't going to give you! But wait, we were on strike for a month and lost $5,000 in wages. Not only that, but some union members aren't smart enough to stock pile money for a strike, so now they have credit card bills which amount to several hundred more in interest payments. Imagine if you had invested that one month's earnings over 3 years, that's almost $800 in interest. So basically the average union man just lost himself $3,000 - $4,000 by going on strike for 1 month! But at least he won, right?

[BostonWu]

I agree that Ford and GM produce crap junk cars but that is not what ultimately brought them to their knees. More than anything it’s the millions of retirees on pension.

I like this guy’s idea: “One way to solve the problems of GM or Ford would be to take them into bankruptcy, thus getting away from existing pension promises, and then selling off the good parts to a private equity firm which would be able to rebuild these firms as sound businesses; that once the flawed pension plan is out of the way, GM or Ford are actually viable firms.”

http://ajayshahblog.blogspot.com/2006/08/why-firms-should-not-run-db-pension.html

Of course if they actually did this could you imagine the backlash from the retirees? You would have mass riots all throughout Michigan.