HBC Machinist Vote to Strike

[rrshock]

Blaming management is idiotic. My guess is that the leadership of most companies has worked just as hard (if not harder) than most of these union employees. They've probably sacrificed family time, some have paid their own way to college or graduate school to better themselves and add value to the company.

The job at any publicly traded company is to increase the value of the stock & company for the shareholders. They aren't non-profits. Each position has a value, and unfortunately the value of the CEO far exceeds that of a hourly union employee.

You've never worked a job for a large corporation as an hourly employee have you? My guess is you've been in management, cause if you ever had, you would never make comments like that. Yes, management does sacrifice too, but not like alot of the people that actually do the things needed for a company to sell products. Alot of people that work in the aircraft industry have been to schooling too. It might not be a fancy 4 year school, but alot have been to schooling. Anyone who works in aircraft maintenance and such has had schooling. They typically aren't just hired off the street without any knowledge of what is going on. They are union members too usually. Does that make them scum too?

And hiring management off the street to tell people that have been doing their jobs for 15-30 years how to do it is stupid too. They don't like to promote from within for management, unless they have to. Hiring a former lumber yard manager, does not make for a very good railroad manager as an example. I know that, cause I saw it done a year ago. Not a good move, but he wasn't a current railroad employee, so he looked better to them.

No matter what most of you are told, unions will always be bad to you. I used to think the same until I had to deal with it directly.

[SpanglerFan316]

Pehraps I should clarify my comments. If you read my comments carefully, you may find that you agree with them. If you read them carelessly, you may disagree.

I would not like to be in a union; I agree with many of the faults ascribed to them by other posters. However they are absolutely essential to the success of our economic and political system. Our system responds to pressure and it is important that there be approximately equal pressure in favor of business and in favor of workers' rights & wages.

Let me illustrate this with an analogy. With Republicians in control of the White House and Congress between 2001 and 2007, bankruptcy laws were changed to benefit the same banks that are irresponsibly flooding consumers with credit card offers. (I usually get several such offers each week, for example.) There is no "equal pressure" in favor of banks and of consumers and it is now harder to obtain a bankruptcy than in the past while no federal law or agency is reining in the banks. (Remember each credit card offer sent to you is an opportunity for someone else to steal your mail and ruin you.)

[SpanglerFan316]

Blaming management is idiotic. My guess is that the leadership of most companies has worked just as hard (if not harder) than most of these union employees. They've probably sacrificed family time, some have paid their own way to college or graduate school to better themselves and add value to the company.

The job at any publicly traded company is to increase the value of the stock & company for the shareholders. They aren't non-profits. Each position has a value, and unfortunately the value of the CEO far exceeds that of a hourly union employee.

There is a concern that other states are trying to steal the skilled aircraft workers in Wichita. Colorado, New Mexico, California, etc. have or are trying to establish an aircraft industry. If these skilled workers being recruited by other states are as worthless as you seem to believe, then why should the city, county and state contribute money to enhance the technical training of new workers in Wichita?

"The job at any publicly traded company is to increase the value of the stock & company for the shareholders. "
I don't think Koch Industries operates this way. GM and Ford do, however. Who is doing better over the long run? My bet is on Koch. GM and Ford built lots of low mileage "cars" that nobody wants now; as far as I am concerned, they can go under because they are being outcompeted by Toyota, BMW, etc. The management of GM, Ford, etc. reflects the virtue of increasing "the value of the stock & company for the shareholders" (in the short term) which you seem to admire. If you are a day trader, you probably don't mind.

[NCAABound]

Blaming management is idiotic. My guess is that the leadership of most companies has worked just as hard (if not harder) than most of these union employees. They've probably sacrificed family time, some have paid their own way to college or graduate school to better themselves and add value to the company.

The job at any publicly traded company is to increase the value of the stock & company for the shareholders. They aren't non-profits. Each position has a value, and unfortunately the value of the CEO far exceeds that of a hourly union employee.

You've never worked a job for a large corporation as an hourly employee have you? My guess is you've been in management, cause if you ever had, you would never make comments like that. Yes, management does sacrifice too, but not like alot of the people that actually do the things needed for a company to sell products. Alot of people that work in the aircraft industry have been to schooling too. It might not be a fancy 4 year school, but alot have been to schooling. Anyone who works in aircraft maintenance and such has had schooling. They typically aren't just hired off the street without any knowledge of what is going on. They are union members too usually. Does that make them scum too?

And hiring management off the street to tell people that have been doing their jobs for 15-30 years how to do it is stupid too. They don't like to promote from within for management, unless they have to. Hiring a former lumber yard manager, does not make for a very good railroad manager as an example. I know that, cause I saw it done a year ago. Not a good move, but he wasn't a current railroad employee, so he looked better to them.

No matter what most of you are told, unions will always be bad to you. I used to think the same until I had to deal with it directly.

Where did I say union members were scum? I'm just trying to make some points to those that blame management for all of their problems, call them POS, etc. I've been both an hourly employee and a manager. I realize a lot of employees make sacrifices. You make it sound like all management is born into the position. Most managers and executives have paid their dues and worked their way up...just because they haven't worked at a certain company for 25 years doesn't mean they haven't paid their dues elsewhere.

[SpanglerFan316]

NCAABound: Can you say (former Westar Energy Inc. CEO) David Wittig "paid (his) dues and worked (his) way up" before taking over Westar?

http://www.cjonline.com/stories/070303/bus_trial.shtml

[NCAABound]

Blaming management is idiotic. My guess is that the leadership of most companies has worked just as hard (if not harder) than most of these union employees. They've probably sacrificed family time, some have paid their own way to college or graduate school to better themselves and add value to the company.

The job at any publicly traded company is to increase the value of the stock & company for the shareholders. They aren't non-profits. Each position has a value, and unfortunately the value of the CEO far exceeds that of a hourly union employee.

There is a concern that other states are trying to steal the skilled aircraft workers in Wichita. Colorado, New Mexico, California, etc. have or are trying to establish an aircraft industry. If these skilled workers being recruited by other states are as worthless as you seem to believe, then why should the city, county and state contribute money to enhance the technical training of new workers in Wichita?

"The job at any publicly traded company is to increase the value of the stock & company for the shareholders. "
I don't think Koch Industries operates this way. GM and Ford do, however. Who is doing better over the long run? My bet is on Koch. GM and Ford built lots of low mileage "cars" that nobody wants now; as far as I am concerned, they can go under because they are being outcompeted by Toyota, BMW, etc. The management of GM, Ford, etc. reflects the virtue of increasing "the value of the stock & company for the shareholders" (in the short term) which you seem to admire. If you are a day trader, you probably don't mind.

My gosh people...I don't think they are worthless!

And since Koch Industries is a private company, they don't operate the same as GM or Ford. That is why they (Koch) perform better IMO. I don't admire publicly traded companies...private companies are more nimble and react better to market conditions. I was just stating a fact as to why public companies make certain decisions. They answer to the shareholder.

[NCAABound]

NCAABound: Can you say (former Westar Energy Inc. CEO) David Wittig "paid (his) dues and worked (his) way up" before taking over Westar?
http://www.cjonline.com/stories/070303/bus_trial.shtml

I said MOST. That's a stupid argument. So when a union member is accused of murder, I can lump the rest of them together with him?

[SpanglerFan316]

And since Koch Industries is a private company, they don't operate the same as GM or Ford. That is why they (Koch) perform better IMO. I don't admire publicly traded companies...private companies are more nimble and react better to market conditions. I was just stating a fact as to why public companies make certain decisions. They answer to the shareholder.

Listed below are some public automobile companies that care about the long term (unlike GM & Ford). Is Koch more "nimble" than Toyota? Hyundai? This "day trader" (OK, "quarter trader") mentality which encourages firms to make the next quarter look good and to ignore the long term health of the company is a fad caused, in part, by having weak individuals as CEOs. Don't blame the "system" (e.g. publicly traded companies) but rather blame the "management" - CEOs, CFOs, Boards of Directors, etc. Your statement "Blaming management is idiotic" is, itself, idiotic. Boeing doesn't produce anything; Boeing is an outsourcing and assembly company. In 20 years, Boeing could be dead and some firm in Japan, Korea, Australia, Brazil, etc. could have taken its place.

Toyota:
Statistics:
Public Company
Incorporated: 1937 as Toyota Motor Co., Ltd.
Employees: 214,631
Sales: $119.66 billion (2000)
Stock Exchanges: Tokyo New York
Ticker Symbol: TM

http://www.alacra.com/company/public-companies.asp?industry=8

Toyota Motor Corporation, Volkswagen AG, Honda Motor Co., Ltd., Daimler AG, Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, Hyundai Motor Company, Ltd., Mitsubishi Motors Corporation, etc.

[rjl]

And since Koch Industries is a private company, they don't operate the same as GM or Ford. That is why they (Koch) perform better IMO. I don't admire publicly traded companies...private companies are more nimble and react better to market conditions. I was just stating a fact as to why public companies make certain decisions. They answer to the shareholder.

Listed below are some public automobile companies that care about the long term (unlike GM & Ford). Is Koch more "nimble" than Toyota? Hyundai? This "day trader" (OK, "quarter trader") mentality which encourages firms to make the next quarter look good and to ignore the long term health of the company is a fad caused, in part, by having weak individuals as CEOs. Don't blame the "system" (e.g. publicly traded companies) but rather blame the "management" - CEOs, CFOs, Boards of Directors, etc. Your statement "Blaming management is idiotic" is, itself, idiotic. Boeing doesn't produce anything; Boeing is an outsourcing and assembly company. In 20 years, Boeing could be dead and some firm in Japan, Korea, Australia, Brazil, etc. could have taken its place.

Toyota:
Statistics:
Public Company
Incorporated: 1937 as Toyota Motor Co., Ltd.
Employees: 214,631
Sales: $119.66 billion (2000)
Stock Exchanges: Tokyo New York
Ticker Symbol: TM

http://www.alacra.com/company/public-companies.asp?industry=8

Toyota Motor Corporation, Volkswagen AG, Honda Motor Co., Ltd., Daimler AG, Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, Hyundai Motor Company, Ltd., Mitsubishi Motors Corporation, etc.

You are dead on correct when it comes to American automobile manufacturer execs blindly looking for immediate stock value increases and not at the long term picture.

Cadillac STILL hasn't learnt its lesson, saying that they'll stop making vehicles with V8 engines "when customers prove that's what they want".

http://jalopnik.com/399531/cadillac-will-downsize-engines-when-customers-prove-thats-what-they-want

As this blog post points out, how exactly are customers supposed to prove to Cadillac that's not what they want anymore? The only real way is to stop buying Cadillacs, which customers are already doing and will cause the brand to drop like a rock when the tide really turns, forcing them to do some complete development shift that will really sink the company.

Instead of taking a smaller loss now by offering more fuel-efficient, smaller displacement forced induction engines, they're holding on to every last drop of a dying cash cow.

[kcshocker11]

This is why I pretty much hate unions. They served a real purpose once; now they're just abused to and over used to try and take as much as possible. These workers have some of the better pay and insurance in Wichita. I wish I had the deal that they have.

It makes me sick.

They are a necessary part of business.

Please help me out with this. How are they necessary?

Please read the above quotes. Then go to your public library and research the history of the labor movement and the conditions under which they were formed.

If you have benies at you job, you should be thanking the labor movement.

If you have a decent hourly wage- labor movement

Child labor laws- labor movement

Workers rights- labor movement

etc.

The list is long!

All good things. All history. The markets for labor and capital are much more efficient in today's economy. Unions are one of the biggest factors working to prevent reaching an optimal outcome. The tangible result is making us less competitive globally. Nothing good on a macro level comes from unions today.

Didnt miss my econ classes, but did learn that most economists never dwell beyond the theorical. :D 8) 8)

Life and business never reach a optimal outcome whatever that is. 8)

[kcshocker11]

The job at any publicly traded company is to increase the value of the stock & company for the shareholders. They aren't non-profits. Each position has a value, and unfortunately the value of the CEO far exceeds that of a hourly union employee.

Sorta like war. The generals wish to win the battle and eventually the war. The solder just wants to keep himself and his buddies alive. The generals they say are the most important. Its pretty hard though to win a battle or a war without the solders. One can't escape the conclusion without solders you dont need generals. 8)

[DUShock]

Pass the popcorn!

[SpanglerFan316]

Pass the popcorn!

I was thinking the same thing. This thread is fun. I'm waiting for someone to really defend GM or Ford or another of the other big US companies who only look at next quarters profit. For example, what does MicroSoft produce that you can't get for free using Linux or *BSD? How many companies has Walmart ruined? Who thinks Bank of America wouldn't like to rip off their credit card customers?

BTW: Nothing I say here is intended as a personal attack. You're all Shocker fans and therefore are the salt of the earth. Your ideas, on the other hand, might be completely bonkers, brainsick, crazy, daft, demented, disordered, distraught, dotty, lunatic, mad, maniac, maniacal, mentally ill, moonstruck, off, touched, unbalanced, unsound, wrong, around the bend, crazy as a loon, mad as a hatter, not all there, nutty as a fruitcake, off, off one's rocker, of unsound mind, out of one's mind, sick in the head, stark raving mad, etc.

:D

[SB Shock]

Pass the popcorn!

I was thinking the same thing. This thread is fun. I'm waiting for someone to really defend GM or Ford or another of the other big US companies who only look at next quarters profit.

That would probably be a bad example since none of those companies make a profit and are prime examples of how piss poor management and unions can run a industry into the ground.

[kcshocker11]

Pass the popcorn!

I was thinking the same thing. This thread is fun. I'm waiting for someone to really defend GM or Ford or another of the other big US companies who only look at next quarters profit. For example, what does MicroSoft produce that you can't get for free using Linux or *BSD? How many companies has Walmart ruined? Who thinks Bank of America wouldn't like to rip off their credit card customers?

BTW: Nothing I say here is intended as a personal attack. You're all Shocker fans and therefore are the salt of the earth. Your ideas, on the other hand, might be completely bonkers, brainsick, crazy, daft, demented, disordered, distraught, dotty, lunatic, mad, maniac, maniacal, mentally ill, moonstruck, off, touched, unbalanced, unsound, wrong, around the bend, crazy as a loon, mad as a hatter, not all there, nutty as a fruitcake, off, off one's rocker, of unsound mind, out of one's mind, sick in the head, stark raving mad, etc.

:D

Just remember Spangler the enemies of the human race are Unions,liberals, Democrats, ACLU, Micheal Moore, Bill Clinton and dont forget the Dixie Chicks. :D Not poverty, pestulance, disease, greed and war. 8) 8) (Just having some fun you all) :D :D :goshocks: