HBC Machinist Vote to Strike

[wu_shizzle]

Anyone guess where those employees would be right now if there wasn't a union out there? They'd be working 12 hour days, 7 days a week, for $8 an hour.

I doubt it. The only ones who would work that schedule are the ones who wouldn't be able to find a better deal somewhere else.

If you can't get a better deal than 12hrs, 7 days a week for $8 an hour, I don't want you building my airplane.

Heck, I don't even know if I want you making my burger and fries...

[kcshocker11]

I dont know the situation in this case, but I am suprised at the anti labor sentiment in this thread

I have spent the majority of my life in management and yes what some would call upper management positions. I have dealt with labor for over 30 years. I have great respect for organized labor and rarely found them
to be the evil I often times hear from others.

Ahhh but what do I know, so I will leave you with a few thoughts of these respected men and women.

Clarence Darrow:
With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed. They have done more for decency, for honesty, for education, for the betterment of the race, for the developing of character in men, than any other association of men.


Dwight D. Eisenhower:
Only a fool would try to deprive working men and working women of their right to join the union of their choice.

Pope Paul VI:
The important role of union organizations must be admitted: their object is the representation of the various categories of workers, their lawful collaboration in the economic advance of society, and the development of the sense of their responsibility for the realization of the common good.

Frank Lloyd Wright:
If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men have a right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that implies the right of men to capitalize their labor.

Abraham Lincoln:
The strongest bond of human sympathy outside the family relation should be one uniting working people of all nations and tongues and kindreds.

Molly Ivins:
Although it is true that only about 20 percent of American workers are in unions, that 20 percent sets the standards across the board in salaries, benefits and working conditions. If you are making a decent salary in a non-union company, you owe that to the unions. One thing that corporations do not do is give out money out of the goodness of their hearts.

Jimmy Carter:
Every advance in this half-century-Social Security, civil rights, Medicare, aid to education, one after another-came with the support and leadership of American Labor.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt:
It is one of the characteristics of a free and democratic nation that is have free and independent labor unions.

Cesar Chavez:
The fight is never about grapes or lettuce. It is always about people.

Susan B. Anthony:
Join the union, girls, and together say Equal Pay for Equal Work.

John L. Lewis:
Let the workers organize. Let the toilers assemble. Let their crystallized voice proclaim their injustices and demand their privileges. Let all thoughtful citizens sustain them, for the future of Labor is the future of America.

Mother Jones:
My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: "We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing."

Wendell Phillips:
The labor movement means just this: It is the last noble protest of the American people against the power of incorporated wealth. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[SB Shock]

Ahhh but what do I know, so I will leave you with a few thoughts of these respected men and women.

Jimmy Carter:

You lost me here.

[7hottamales]

This is why I pretty much hate unions. They served a real purpose once; now they're just abused to and over used to try and take as much as possible. These workers have some of the better pay and insurance in Wichita. I wish I had the deal that they have.

It makes me sick.

They are a necessary part of business.

Please help me out with this. How are they necessary?

[SpanglerFan316]

This is why I pretty much hate unions. They served a real purpose once; now they're just abused to and over used to try and take as much as possible. These workers have some of the better pay and insurance in Wichita. I wish I had the deal that they have.

It makes me sick.

Interesting. Do you think WalMart workers are overpaid? Would a union be good for them?

[KC Shox]

I just don't get these people. The majority of these machinists are high school grads and drop-outs only. For only having a GED, or a high school diploma, they make a damn good living. Don't bite the hand that feeds you pal. Especially during the economic downturn in this country.

[SubGod22]

I have no idea what Wal-Mart workers get paid and don't care. If you don't like your job, or pay, or benefits find something better. Better yourself so you can get a better situation. The HBC workers are much better off than most and they always seem to be complaining.

And complaining that they don't make what Cessna does is ridiculous. There's a reason Cessna turns the profit they do and have such high customer service ratings. They also have the largest portion of the business jet market in the world. You can't say all those things for HBC.

Personally, if I were required to join a union I'd find another job. I had the option to join the union when I worked for the Postal Service and declined. And it's probably why I was laid off over some others considering my numbers were better than a lot of others.

[WuDrWu]

I have no idea what Wal-Mart workers get paid and don't care. If you don't like your job, or pay, or benefits find something better. Better yourself so you can get a better situation. The HBC workers are much better off than most and they always seem to be complaining.

Excellent. Some need to be reminded of what kind of society we live in from time to time.

The unions, today, unfortunately mirror much of what's wrong in our public school systems. Don't tell anyone what they are doing wrong, make no incentives to encourage achievement, pander to the lcd even at the expense of your best workers.

Some of the "10 reasons to strike" list are beyond comical. Just reading "information letter" made me throw up. "Hawker Beechcraft REFUSED to grant more holidays". LOL They already get 8+......the way I read it, I really don't know how they get any planes built with all the time off built in.

Quotes like "management has mistreated" and "unfair labor practices" for a group of workers that are paid a rate substantially more than the average unskilled worker in the area, and get benefits that far exceed what the average unskilled worker gets in the area do nothing to further their cause.

If they want to discuss their contract, fine. I also understand wanting to get the best deal they can. So do I. However, when you act like they do, you aren't going to convert any non-believers.

And this is how and why companies end up moving. All for a few pennies.

I guess when you think about it, it's exactly the kind of stupidity one should expect from these clowns.

[rrshock]

I have no idea what Wal-Mart workers get paid and don't care. If you don't like your job, or pay, or benefits find something better. Better yourself so you can get a better situation. The HBC workers are much better off than most and they always seem to be complaining.

Personally, if I were required to join a union I'd find another job. I had the option to join the union when I worked for the Postal Service and declined. And it's probably why I was laid off over some others considering my numbers were better than a lot of others.

Walmart employees can only work right up to full-time hours without hitting them so that Walmart doesn't have to pay benefits to a full time employee.

Also, in some places, people lost their jobs because of Walmart and Walmart is the only place to work in the area. Walmart has come into smaller towns and cities and literally drove all the other businesses out. Thus leaving people very little options for employment.

And you would go find a job elsewhere, even if you made $80K a year, because you were forced to join the union? I find that hard to believe that anyone would say that.

My job has a rule book. It is the size of the phone book. Those rules are there to fire you by, not to help protect you. Many rules are outdated and have no bearing on what happens day-to-day, but the company will still use them to fire or punish you. The union helps protect the employees from management, who don't know the rules, from applying them in their own interpretation and punishing employees. Yes there are guys who are worthless and should be terminated, but there are alot more honest people that make honest mistakes that are punished severely.

The union also wants fair and equal pay. Yes $80K+ is alot, but considering the CEO (a figurehead at best, but does nothing else), makes $25 million between pay, bonuses, and incentives, but the company doesn't want to give the employees a 1% higher raise and wants to raise health insurance premiums and co pays and everything else, I think the unions have a fair gripe.

Safety in the workplace is also a big issue with the union where I work. And safety doesn't just effect me and my coworkers either, it effects everyone in the area. If we were to have a bad accident, it could literally kill half the city of Wichita if there was the right combination of items involved.

So everyone can keep going on with how the unions are BS and don't do anything and blah, blah, blah, but that isn't the case. Next time you here about unions, don't just see the negative, but think about what good things they do too.

[kcshocker11]

This is why I pretty much hate unions. They served a real purpose once; now they're just abused to and over used to try and take as much as possible. These workers have some of the better pay and insurance in Wichita. I wish I had the deal that they have.

It makes me sick.

They are a necessary part of business.

Please help me out with this. How are they necessary?

Please read the above quotes. Then go to your public library and research the history of the labor movement and the conditions under which they were formed.

If you have benies at you job, you should be thanking the labor movement.

If you have a decent hourly wage- labor movement

Child labor laws- labor movement

Workers rights- labor movement

etc.

The list is long!
I can tell you from personal experience that behind close doors the reason management makes many decisions would shock you.

i'll give you one example.
I attended a meeting where the Mgmt team was dissucussing cost cutting of labor. This was done to up its EBITA so as to raise its stock price. The people making this decision held stock options. Thus making themselves millions of dollars at the expense of hard working people.

I have ethics ,and I was raised with a sense of morality. I no longer work in the corporate world. I now am a small business owner and oh so glad!.
When I attended WSU they had a class called business and society. At the time i thought what a waste. After the years, I now know that it may well have been one of the most important classes I ever took.

If you think the corp cares about you you are sadly mistaken. If you think that mgmt makes decisions strictly for the benefit of the business as a going concern, you are naive. The labor movement serves as a counter balance.

I am not saying that labor is perfect. They are far from it, but give them credit where credit is do!

After all, those who critize usually are benefitting from the labor movement without even knowing it.

PS - while attending WSU I was vacation relief trucker during the summers in KCMO. I had to join the Teamster Union and pay dues. At first I was mad. Min wage at the time was $1.35 hr. I made enough money to totally pay for my schooling and living . I graduated from WSU with 2 degrees and debt free. I owe that to the Teamsters.

Not to many years later I sat in face to face negotiations with the very same union I had been a member. Hows that for irony.




8) 8) 8)

[SubGod22]

Believe me, I'd pass on the 80k if I had to join. There's more to life than simply money. I'm not going to take a job that I don't like or goes against something I believe in or makes me do something I have no desire to ever do. I'd gladly take less money to be in a situation that I like.

Nobody is saying unions are completely bad, but the stuff they come up with to whine about all the freaking time is ridiculous and isn't going to get simpathy from me and many others. And some of the arguments they come up with just amaze me.

[rrshock]

One other thing to add on kcshocker11's stuff about being helped by labor unions without knowing it.

Say you are working in a place that has a union, but you aren't a member of it. Guess what? You get the same things they do. So in essence you are using the union without paying them. When they get a raise, you get a raise. Better health insurance, you guessed it.

Ever heard of the term "Railroaded"? That came about because of how the railroads treated employees. The unions really done wonders for their employees rights now.

Without unions, everyone would be at the mercy of the greedy sob's that run the larger companies. I'm sorry but trying to keep employees down, while padding their own pocket books isn't right. Those employees do 100 x's more for the company that the suits ever will. Yet the suits take all the credit.

And I saw that HBC circulated something about the contract with the union logo on it. The union made a big stink, and rightfully so. If workers see a union seal on it, they would think that the union is agreeing with it and approves it. When, especially in this case, they didn't. HBC said it was a mistake, or whatever, but I don't buy that one bit. They knew what they were doing when they put it on there.

[wu_shizzle]

My job has a rule book. It is the size of the phone book. Those rules are there to fire you by, not to help protect you. Many rules are outdated and have no bearing on what happens day-to-day, but the company will still use them to fire or punish you. The union helps protect the employees from management, who don't know the rules, from applying them in their own interpretation and punishing employees. Yes there are guys who are worthless and should be terminated, but there are alot more honest people that make honest mistakes that are punished severely.

In our litigious society, it's amazing what you have to do to get rid of an employee. Employees who provide value never have to worry about a "rule book". It's only the ones who are easily replaced that are worried about finding ways to "save" their job.

The union also wants fair and equal pay. Yes $80K+ is alot, but considering the CEO (a figurehead at best, but does nothing else), makes $25 million between pay, bonuses, and incentives, but the company doesn't want to give the employees a 1% higher raise and wants to raise health insurance premiums and co pays and everything else, I think the unions have a fair gripe.

Disdain for those who have been successful is never the road to your own success. Don't hate, imitate.

Safety in the workplace is also a big issue with the union where I work. And safety doesn't just effect me and my coworkers either, it effects everyone in the area. If we were to have a bad accident, it could literally kill half the city of Wichita if there was the right combination of items involved.

So let me get this straight; without the union, mgmt would let safety issues slide because the financial loss and bad PR would be worth it?

So everyone can keep going on with how the unions are BS and don't do anything and blah, blah, blah, but that isn't the case. Next time you here about unions, don't just see the negative, but think about what good things they do too.

I think we can all agree that unions have led to needed change in the workplace and that they still have a useful function. But you must realize that the practices and attitudes of union leadership, and many of their members, have turned of many in this town over the years. If you are paid well for a job that doesn't require a lot of education, have a little humility.

[7hottamales]

This is why I pretty much hate unions. They served a real purpose once; now they're just abused to and over used to try and take as much as possible. These workers have some of the better pay and insurance in Wichita. I wish I had the deal that they have.

It makes me sick.

They are a necessary part of business.

Please help me out with this. How are they necessary?

Please read the above quotes. Then go to your public library and research the history of the labor movement and the conditions under which they were formed.

If you have benies at you job, you should be thanking the labor movement.

If you have a decent hourly wage- labor movement

Child labor laws- labor movement

Workers rights- labor movement

etc.

The list is long!

All good things. All history. The markets for labor and capital are much more efficient in today's economy. Unions are one of the biggest factors working to prevent reaching an optimal outcome. The tangible result is making us less competitive globally. Nothing good on a macro level comes from unions today.

[7hottamales]

This is why I pretty much hate unions. They served a real purpose once; now they're just abused to and over used to try and take as much as possible. These workers have some of the better pay and insurance in Wichita. I wish I had the deal that they have.

It makes me sick.

They are a necessary part of business.

Please help me out with this. How are they necessary?

If you have benies at you job, you should be thanking the labor movement.

I almost missed this little nugget. Actually benefits were an unintended result of action taken by the largest culprit in creating inefficiencies and competitive disadvantages for our economy.

They are a direct result of finding creative ways to compensate employees when the government ruled that business didn't have the ability to decide what their employees were worth.

The genesis of employee benefits in this country are a perfect example of how free markets can be creative and effective.