Just when you think you've seen it all

[SFL]

Talk about opening up a can of night crawlers.
I'll be heading to the city council asking them for chump change... a measly 1MM should do.
:shock:

http://www.kansas.com/197/story/437619.html

[RoyalShock]

What are they thinking? Obviously there aren't any bankers on the council.

Maybe they'll come to their senses before a binding vote on the loan.

[shocks771]

While I don't like it, I fear that losing the Old Town Warren would really hurt development in the downtown area. My hope is that with the opening of the arena that within the next five years that the theatre will be turning at least a small profit. If that happens it should mean that the downtown area is doing just fine.

Personally, I really like the Old Town Warren as it is the only theatre in town where people under 21 are not allowed after 9:00. I'd say that of the movies that I have seen in the theatre since the Old Town Warren opened I have probably seen 90%-95% of them downtown. Another plus is that you are served food and beverage during the movie, including alcoholic beverages.

The whole Oscars concept was cool, but I just don't think it was setup correctly. Unless you were sitting at the bar, on the stairway, or up top you had to look straight up to see the screen. I think they should have put the bar right in front of the screen and then fill in where the bar is currently with tables. I think it would have been more successful if they were to have done that. Hopefully by turning it into another theatre it will help keep the place open.

[Snapshot9]

The Old Town Warren creates the main atmosphere for that whole area there, and it would be a shame (and loss of business for other businesses) if it was lost. It maintains the old town square look in a modern way.

[RoyalShock]

There are some things government shouldn't do. Making loans to private businesses is one of them, IMO. Especially when those seeking the loan haven't even talked to a financial institution (which tells me all I need to know about how risky it is).

The market needs to decide if the Old Town Warren is really wanted or needed.

I've grown to accept that municpal governments will give tax breaks to new or expanding businesses. But I draw the line at outright loans. It's a very bad precedent and anyone who supports it will have no room to complain when their property taxes increase to cover the loss on defaulted loans and the overhead to administrate it all.

[BostonWu]

2 words - slippery sloap

[rrshock]

This just sounds fishy. But hey..what do I know?

[t7017s]

This is total BS!!! If he is so damn sure that he wont continue to lose money and will be able to repay the loan than he should go to the damn bank like everyone else. I suspect he made a deal with the council and agreed to not sue over the diamond wranglers if they in turn would turn them down and then turn around and cut him a check when he needed it. I understand that hes there because they asked him to be in order to establish the "downtown revitalization" and now the council is in a position that they cant let the warren fall or they just look that much worse. Its a total mess all around and lets face it the council has botched this whole "revitalization from the get go and we are all going to be paying for it for a long time to come. Bad thing is when 10 years pass and the warren is still a money hole and that loan cant be repaid its coming out of our pockets and thats just messed up and we wont have jack to show for it. I love the thought that I'm going to pay for him and his buddies to go out of business over the next 10 years. Guy is a total freaking crook. Guy was stealing money when he was a kid working at Twin Lakes theaters and still is to this day. What a bunch of BS!!!

[BostonWu]

I don't agree with the city providing banking services to wealthy private citizens but from what I've read this is a fully collateralized loan. So there should be no risk to the local taxpayers.

[rjl]

This is a loan that will be paid back with interest. Much better, in my opinion, than offering tax breaks which will be money forever lost by the city.

Get rid of both, and the City would of been without some major employers for some time now.

[t7017s]

This is a loan that will be paid back with interest. Much better, in my opinion, than offering tax breaks which will be money forever lost by the city.

Get rid of both, and the City would of been without some major employers for some time now.

Yeah 0% for the first 5 years and 1.25% for the last 5 years. What a joke. Thats a better deal than our representatives and congressmen are getting from countrywide right now.

[rjl]

This is a loan that will be paid back with interest. Much better, in my opinion, than offering tax breaks which will be money forever lost by the city.

Get rid of both, and the City would of been without some major employers for some time now.

Yeah 0% for the first 5 years and 1.25% for the last 5 years. What a joke. Thats a better deal than our representatives and congressmen are getting from countrywide right now.

Versus a tax break that is millions gone forever.

As much as I don't really care for Bill personally, I can see this as a situation where he was talked into a development by the city because they wanted some Old Town development, and now he's asking them to help him out because it's turned into a bad investment.

[RoyalShock]

I don't agree with the city providing banking services to wealthy private citizens but from what I've read this is a fully collateralized loan. So there should be no risk to the local taxpayers.

But if he defaults on the loan, the city will acquire property that will be on the tax rolls (they'll pay county tax on it). Then someone has to handle everything that goes with trying to manage and sell the property.

If the council goes through with this, they might as well open the "Citizen's Bank of Wichita", because they will have established a precedent. If there is one thing I've learned after being on a city council, it is that you better be EXTREMELY careful when you begin exploring uncharted waters (setting precedent).

Municipal government is a taxing entity, not a financial institution. So while tax breaks might mean lower revenue, that is within their authority. Loaning out tax money is not, or at least, shouldn't be. It's not about the money, per se, but about what functions government should be restricted to performing.

Rationalizing that it's OK for reasons that fall outside its purpose is exactly what has gotten all levels of government too deeply involved (ie. controlling) in the lives of citizens.

[t7017s]

I don't agree with the city providing banking services to wealthy private citizens but from what I've read this is a fully collateralized loan. So there should be no risk to the local taxpayers.

But if he defaults on the loan, the city will acquire property that will be on the tax rolls (they'll pay county tax on it). Then someone has to handle everything that goes with trying to manage and sell the property.

If the council goes through with this, they might as well open the "Citizen's Bank of Wichita", because they will have established a precedent. If there is one thing I've learned after being on a city council, it is that you better be EXTREMELY careful when you begin exploring uncharted waters (setting precedent).

Municipal government is a taxing entity, not a financial institution. So while tax breaks might mean lower revenue, that is within their authority. Loaning out tax money is not, or at least, shouldn't be. It's not about the money, per se, but about what functions government should be restricted to performing.

Rationalizing that it's OK for reasons that fall outside its purpose is exactly what has gotten all levels of government too deeply involved (ie. controlling) in the lives of citizens.

Exactly! Perfectly said.

[rjl]

I don't agree with the city providing banking services to wealthy private citizens but from what I've read this is a fully collateralized loan. So there should be no risk to the local taxpayers.

But if he defaults on the loan, the city will acquire property that will be on the tax rolls (they'll pay county tax on it). Then someone has to handle everything that goes with trying to manage and sell the property.

If the council goes through with this, they might as well open the "Citizen's Bank of Wichita", because they will have established a precedent. If there is one thing I've learned after being on a city council, it is that you better be EXTREMELY careful when you begin exploring uncharted waters (setting precedent).

Municipal government is a taxing entity, not a financial institution. So while tax breaks might mean lower revenue, that is within their authority. Loaning out tax money is not, or at least, shouldn't be. It's not about the money, per se, but about what functions government should be restricted to performing.

Rationalizing that it's OK for reasons that fall outside its purpose is exactly what has gotten all levels of government too deeply involved (ie. controlling) in the lives of citizens.

I think it was the nature of this project that makes it the exception, however, in that I believe Bill et. al. built the Old Town Warren at the behest of the city as it tried to expand the entertainment options and geographic area of Old Town.

Now, you (and I, for that matter) can make a sound argument that Warren is responsible for how that investment performed, but I'm pretty sure it's an investment he never would of made had the city not asked him to.

That exception is why Warren gets the loan and XYZ machine shop on south Waco might not.

I'm just guessing here, but there may have been some promises made to the other tenants in Old Town Square, as well as other projects like the Courtyard Marriott that the theatre will exist for a certain amount of time.

Maybe I'm operating on way too much blind faith, but I'm guessing someone put the numbers together and decided it would be in the city's best interest financially to keep the Old Town Warren afloat from projected tax earnings, increased Old Town development, and other associated revenue.

It's essentially the flagship of Old Town, and the city would hate to lose it.

Now, I'm not saying I 100% agree with the loan... mainly because I'm not involved and don't know many of the details, but I DO know that many other cities have been doing much the same and have really shot ahead of what Wichita has to offer in the way of entertainment and industry. You can make a sound argument that a city should never be involved in such things, but you'll be making that argument in a city that's increasingly falling behind its peers.