The evangelicals are at it again!

[shock]

And about the tree, Saint Boniphus(sp?) cut down the tree that the Germanic pagans were worshipping as they believed if any man did so he would be struck down by Thor. Boniphus was not struck down and they all converted. In the end, he gave them an evergreen to cut down because it has a triangular shape, which was to point them to God and remind them of the Trinity. Cutting down the tree is a reminder that our God is greater than any we set before him.

[kcshocker11]

[shocka khan]

If the only reason you have to be good is to be rewarded/avoid punishment, you are doing so out of selfishness, which means you are completely missing the message.

Also, this billboard is ridiculously dumb. I've never understood the obsession so many atheists in this country have with provoking Christians.

I think all the 'war on Christmas' is equally dumb. But Fox happily promotes it to the unvarnished masses.

Christmas is a holiday where you can choose to participate or not. I choose to participate and I feel sorry for the kids whose parents don't participate most of all.

All this crap about what Starbucks cups have on them is more about how Christmas is commercialized and less of what Christmas is truly about - a time to be with your loved ones, enjoy their company and self-reflect. Religion is a significant part of that.

[1979Shocker]

I just want to know how you got your wife to go along with that. Giving up not only Christmas, but Thanksgiving, Valentines Day, Mothers Day, birthdays, Wedding anniversaries, and dare I say even Easter is a lot because all are heavily, if not directly, influenced by pagan rituals and rites. Unless, of course, you have singled out Christmas as the most egregious and therefore singled it out to make an example of it.

Edit: which is ironic because it is probably the least effected by pagans.

Thanksgiving is okay by me, even though that is something that should be done everyday.

[shockmonster]

I think all the 'war on Christmas' is equally dumb. But Fox happily promotes it to the unvarnished masses.

Christmas is a holiday where you can choose to participate or not. I choose to participate and I feel sorry for the kids whose parents don't participate most of all.

All this crap about what Starbucks cups have on them is more about how Christmas is commercialized and less of what Christmas is truly about - a time to be with your loved ones, enjoy their company and self-reflect. Religion is a significant part of that.

Sorry. The sign above, proves that there is a War on Christmas.

[jdshock]

Warning, long rambling post ahead...

Not so fast. The Christmas tree is pagan, the rest, not so much. Dec 25, Jan. 6th and March 25 are where early Christians believed Christ's birth may have taken place. This whole line of thinking, of which you speak, is being spread by new age wiccans and pagans, as well as JW's, Seventh Days and the like. Google searches aside, it is unfortunate that many have come to believe this pagan-Christmas thing as fact. Early Christians did not admit new members, pagan or otherwise, at Christmas. New members of the early church were admitted at Easter, so if your belief were true, we wouldn't need a Christmas Tree,but an Easter Tree.

The truth is, Christmas was a very minor day in the early Church, Christ's birth, while important, is of less importance than his death and resurrection. In the Catholic Church, Christmas is still not even a Holy Day of Obligation. His birth is a fact, it happened, but what is more important is his but public ministry, death and resurrection, which were years off. Again, a minor day in the early church, not even a Holy Day of Obligation, nor when new members were admitted.

Quite frankly, Christ was born somewhere between Dec and March, the Catholic Church keeps a liturgical calendar, which is also followed by most mainline protestants. Easter is the big day, as Christ's resurrection redeemed us, with the start of the liturgical year falling on Pentacost. Christmas falls closely in line with where early Christians believed he was born, but his birth being of less importance, and the fact that it is quite possible that it took place in December, that is where it is celebrated. Factually, Christmas falling in line with pagan celebration is much coincidence. The notion of this being done for the pagans is false. Dec 25th simply is close to where his birth took place, fits the liturgical calendar, and is coincidental.

Way back then, Christmas wasn't a big deal, Easter was. The early church didn't even admit new members at Christmas, they did it at Easter. The Catholic Church has gone back to that, with candidates beginning their study in the fall and admittance into the Church, not at Christmas, but at Easter. If what you are saying we're true, and all of this were done to reel in the pagans, there would be no need for Christmas Trees, we'd all decorate Easter Trees.

I wish you could just enjoy the holiday for what it is. I hope your kids do.

There's some good information in this post, but a lot of misinformation too.

First, Christmas is absolutely a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics. Source 1, Source 2.

Second, the time of Jesus' birth is hotly debated. I've never heard anyone confident that it occurred between December and March. For example, this article proposes that it could have been Spring, Summer, or Fall.

[MoValley John]

There's some good information in this post, but a lot of misinformation too.

First, Christmas is absolutely a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics. Source 1, Source 2.

Second, the time of Jesus' birth is hotly debated. I've never heard anyone confident that it occurred between December and March. For example, this article proposes that it could have been Spring, Summer, or Fall.

You're right. It was late and I screwed up the Ash Wednesday and Christmas obligations. That said, as a matter of importance in the Church, Christmas isn't nearly as important as many other Holy Days, but, as the link I supplied, it is a very important day culturally and of social significance. For the JW's, and to a lesser degree the Seventh Dayers to have a problem with it is more "biting off their noses to spite their faces" than anything else. Christmas is not derived from the pagans, the whole idea, when looked in context of the early Church, how and when people were and are accepted into the church, and lining the religious dates up on the liturgical calendar, is a ridiculous notion.

Pagans and Wiccan have attempted to legitimize their beliefs and discount Christianity by pushing this fallacy, sadly, JW'S and 7th Dayers have also adopted it. The fact that you can find plenty of websites publishing the notion as truth, doesn't make it so.

[jdshock]

You're right. It was late and I screwed up the Ash Wednesday and Christmas obligations. That said, as a matter of importance in the Church, Christmas isn't nearly as important as many other Holy Days, but, as the link I supplied, it is a very important day culturally and of social significance. For the JW's, and to a lesser degree the Seventh Dayers to have a problem with it is more biting off their noses to spite their faces than anything else. Christmas is not derived from the pagans, the whole idea, when looked in context of the early Church, how and when people are accepted into the church, and lining the dates up on the liturgical calendar, is a ridiculous notion.

Pagans and Wiccan have attempted to legitimize their beliefs and discount Christiamity by pushing this fallacy, sadly, JW'S and 7th Dayers have also adopted it. The fact that you can find plenty of websites publishing the notion as truth, doesn't make it so.

I agree that Christmas itself is a celebration of Christ, but why does it matter if the date was moved to compete with a Pagan holiday? I honestly don't know enough about it to have an informed decision regarding the month. I had just never heard the assertion that it was definitively within those few months. To me, the celebration itself doesn't change even if the date is different. Do you think some people are persuaded not to celebrate Christmas because someone states that the date is wrong? I am not trying to make a point, I legitimately don't know. To me, it's all just a celebration of the same thing, so I don't really care if the date is wrong.

Back to the Santa Clause point, though. I think I'm too selfish to want to use the Santa tradition. I'd want my kids to know those gifts came from me. I also want them to call the police if anyone ever comes down our chimney! :witless:

Late Edit: I realized there may be an answer to my own question within this very thread. I guess there may be people who choose not to celebrate Christmas because of a proposed connection to a pagan holiday.

[MoValley John]

There's some good information in this post, but a lot of misinformation too.

First, Christmas is absolutely a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics. Source 1, Source 2.

Second, the time of Jesus' birth is hotly debated. I've never heard anyone confident that it occurred between December and March. For example, this article proposes that it could have been Spring, Summer, or Fall.

As far as the actual date, who knows? It has been argued many ways. What I have read, and becomes popular a popular belief, is late December through March. This is due to the shepards tending to their flocks and lambs. This is the time of year that sheep were moved, and later, when lambs are born. The rest of the time, the sheep would simply be pastured. They don't call lamb birthing calving, I'm not sure what it's called.

[MoValley John]

I just looked it up, it's called lambing. Sheep were moved late December through January and lambing occurred around March.

[MoValley John]

Oh, and I like Santa!

I_like_santa.jpg

[1979Shocker]

There's some good information in this post, but a lot of misinformation too.

First, Christmas is absolutely a Holy Day of Obligation for Catholics. Source 1, Source 2.

Second, the time of Jesus' birth is hotly debated. I've never heard anyone confident that it occurred between December and March. For example, this article proposes that it could have been Spring, Summer, or Fall.

if you take the position that God doesn't cause events to occur randomly, but at certain times (or feasts) of the year, then you'll understand when he was born. Here are some major events in the Bible and when they occurred.

1. Giving of the Ten Commandments - occurred on the feast of Pentecost.
2. Death of Jesus - occurred on Passover.
3. Establishment of the church - occurred on the feast of Pentecost.

And to go back a few years.

4, Birth of John the Baptist - occurred on Passover. The Jews even today leave a place setting for Elijah during Passover. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.
5. Birth of Jesus (6 months later) - occurred on feast of Tabernacles. "And the Word became flesh and dwelt (or tabernacled) among us," (John 1:14a)

December was actually when he was conceived. This would have been around the Festival of Lights (Hanukkah). "Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, 'I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.'" (John 8:12).

Again, you can find out about all of this by just doing a Google search. All the research has already been done for you. It's not like in the olden days, before we had the Internet, where you would either have to go to the public library to research this information for yourself (and this could take hours and hours of research), or just believe what your pastor, preacher, or priest told you. Of course, you didn't know whether they were telling you the truth or just continuing a tradition that they learned from someone else.

[SB Shock]

if you take the position that God doesn't cause events to occur randomly, but at certain times (or feasts) of the year, then you'll understand when he was born. Here are some major events in the Bible and when they occurred.

1. Giving of the Ten Commandments - occurred on the feast of Pentecost.
2. Death of Jesus - occurred on Passover.
3. Establishment of the church - occurred on the feast of Pentecost.

And to go back a few years.

4, Birth of John the Baptist - occurred on Passover. The Jews even today leave a place setting for Elijah during Passover. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.
5. Birth of Jesus (6 months later) - occurred on feast of Tabernacles. "And the Word became flesh and dwelt (or tabernacled) among us," (John 1:14a)

December was actually when he was conceived. This would have been around the Festival of Lights (Hanukkah). "Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, 'I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.'" (John 8:12).

Again, you can find out about all of this by just doing a Google search. All the research has already been done for you. It's not like in the olden days, before we had the Internet, where you would either have to go to the public library to research this information for yourself (and this could take hours and hours of research), or just believe what your pastor, preacher, or priest told you. Of course, you didn't know whether they were telling you the truth or just continuing a tradition that they learned from someone else.

It is to bad that the early church was so anti-sematic that they threw away the "feasts" and adopted the pagan holidays.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

There's a whole lot we don't know about Christ's birth. We don't even know for sure what year it was, let alone what month. From what I have read (sorry, no time right now to hunt for a link), May/June/July has been the best guess based on what we know about the Roman census. I do think it was awfully tempting for early church leaders to place a Christian holiday on the same exact day as a pagan holiday, especially considering the competitive religious environment of the Roman empire at that time.

But with that said, what difference does it make? It does not invalidate Christ's birth that a bunch of dudes who honestly didn't know any better arbitrarily decided on a date because they were trying to promote their religion over another. It also does not invalidate Christ's birth that a bunch of his followers, operating in a complete vacuum of traditions because their religion was so flippin' new, adopted a few traditions from the holiday they were trying to displace. Sometimes today's society gets so caught up in the trees that we forget there's a forest. The spirit of the holiday cannot be supplanted because someone twists relatively inconsequential information to somehow be evidence that it's a myth.

[shockmonster]

But with that said, what difference does it make? It does not invalidate Christ's birth that a bunch of dudes who honestly didn't know any better arbitrarily decided on a date because they were trying to promote their religion over another. It also does not invalidate Christ's birth that a bunch of his followers, operating in a complete vacuum of traditions because their religion was so flippin' new, adopted a few traditions from the holiday they were trying to displace. Sometimes today's society gets so caught up in the trees that we forget there's a forest. The spirit of the holiday cannot be supplanted because someone twists relatively inconsequential information to somehow be evidence that it's a myth.

Yes. This is what is important.
Linus explains what Christmas is all about. Luke2: 8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field , keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 ...

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