Educational system reforms

[wufan]

I agree with that somewhat, but you're mixing and matching statistics to a weird degree, without sources or context.

I wouldn't call what I was posting "statistics". More of a generalization on what I have gathered over time.

Also, for one thing, vocational/trade schools are included in statistics like PISA's. For another, assuming massive differences between vocational and general students is not necessarily correct. Countries like Japan and Mexico, for instance, have almost no discernible difference.

In Japan, for instance, schools that teach things such as computer programming and engineering are considered vocational. I wonder if those were some of the schools used for the study or if they used the textile schools? Per the article, almost all of the schools do massively better than the general schools. Japan, Tapei and shanghai were the only countries that did better than the US in math in the vocational schools, and two of the three did markedly better in general schools.

In general, my point on this was that the top X% of US students is on similar grounds with the top X% of foreign schools, or at least within a couple standard deviations.

My general view is that the American education system is good, not great, but we choose to do things like offer education to everyone up to the age of 18, teach kids with learning disabilities in the same classes as general population, and use the school system as a means to feed kids two cheap meals per day (and parents in the summer) year round. Those things cost money and take away from the general education of the general population.

[wufan]

I just left the military. I'm well aware what base pay is for an E1.

To use your own words, if you don't want to consider money spent on housing and food as salary, "Do it both ways." Take a guess what that would do to the average income of a Kansas teacher.

The average total compensation of an army employee (enlisted or officer) is $99K (and that includes everything).

The average total compensation of a Wichita teacher is $80K, but this does not include superintendents, principles, etc. All of those folks started off with an education degree and earn about 100% more than the average teacher. That also doesn't include FOUR MONTHS VACATION. I'm not sure how much leave an E1 gets, but the average teacher only has to work 1500 hours versus other positions that require 2000 hours annually. 1/3 of $50K (salary only) is 17K...so on an hour to hour comparison with private sector folks, a teacher is earning the equivalent of $97K for their services.

If you want to talk about 100K versus 80K for average, rather than 40K versus 35K for new to job, I'm okay with that.

[Rlh04d]

I wouldn't call what I was posting "statistics". More of a generalization on what I have gathered over time.

They meet the definition of statistics. You just didn't represent them as an opinion, which is what they are.

In general, my point on this was that the top X% of US students is on similar grounds with the top X% of foreign schools, or at least within a couple standard deviations.

I'm only particularly interested in how the US matches up to other developed countries. I have no doubt China and others aren't truly representing their student success.

I also think it's interesting you're making the assumption that everyone is manipulating their numbers but us, on this idea that countries get to choose their own schools. If Japan is factoring out textile vocational schools, I guarantee we're factoring out inner city DC schools. So how is that really relevant? You're acting like they're cheating and we're just taking a broad overview of all students. Top US secondary schools are generally already segregated by income; if countries are manipulating these numbers by selecting high performing schools, so are we.

[Rlh04d]

The average total compensation of an army employee (enlisted or officer) is $99K (and that includes everything).

The average total compensation of a Wichita teacher is $80K, but this does not include superintendents, principles, etc. All of those folks started off with an education degree and earn about 100% more than the average teacher. That also doesn't include FOUR MONTHS VACATION. I'm not sure how much leave an E1 gets, but the average teacher only has to work 1500 hours versus other positions that require 2000 hours annually. 1/3 of $50K (salary only) is 17K...so on an hour to hour comparison with private sector folks, a teacher is earning the equivalent of $97K for their services.

If you want to talk about 100K versus 80K for average, rather than 40K versus 35K for new to job, I'm okay with that.

You'd need to break those numbers out, if you're arguing those numbers include everything. What does "everything" mean here in terms of military pay and teacher pay?

An E1 receives 2.5 days of monthly leave per month, plus 10 federal holidays. All or nearly all of the federal holidays are generally accompanied by a "family day" off, depending on your situation/job importance/location. That's about 50 days per year. Assuming an average of 260 days in a year, 8 hour workday, that would put military at 1680 work hours in a year. (Granted that's a best case scenario, as military leave rules are obviously more strict than other sectors.)

[wufan]

They meet the definition of statistics. You just didn't represent them as an opinion, which is what they are.


I'm only particularly interested in how the US matches up to other developed countries. I have no doubt China and others aren't truly representing their student success.

I also think it's interesting you're making the assumption that everyone is manipulating their numbers but us, on this idea that countries get to choose their own schools. If Japan is factoring out textile vocational schools, I guarantee we're factoring out inner city DC schools. So how is that really relevant? You're acting like they're cheating and we're just taking a broad overview of all students. Top US secondary schools are generally already segregated by income; if countries are manipulating these numbers by selecting high performing schools, so are we.

The only schools I've seen shown are the U.S. schools. They are public schools in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Florida. I do not know if anyone is sandbagging, however, the fact that many countries have a large % of the population that does not go to general school after the age of 15 does make me believe that we are not testing the same populations. I have not seen anything that states that one way or the other however.

[wufan]

You'd need to break those numbers out, if you're arguing those numbers include everything. What does "everything" mean here in terms of military pay and teacher pay?

An E1 receives 2.5 days of monthly leave per month, plus 10 federal holidays. All or nearly all of the federal holidays are generally accompanied by a "family day" off, depending on your situation/job importance/location. That's about 50 days per year. Assuming an average of 260 days in a year, 8 hour workday, that would put military at 1680 work hours in a year.

That's a lot of days off for someone. Do E1s work five days a week or 7?

Here's the link. http://m.goarmy.com/benefits/total-compensation.m.html

[Rlh04d]

The only schools I've seen shown are the U.S. schools. They are public schools in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Florida. I do not know if anyone is sandbagging, however, the fact that many countries have a large % of the population that does not go to general school after the age of 15 does make me believe that we are not testing the same populations. I have not seen anything that states that one way or the other however.

Still no way to say that we aren't cherry-picking the best public schools in each of those states to cast our own numbers in the best possible light.

[wufan]

Still no way to say that we aren't cherry-picking the best public schools in each of those states to cast our own numbers in the best possible light.

Could be.

[Rlh04d]

That's a lot of days off for someone. Do E1s work five days a week or 7?

That's hard to answer. E1 is a very odd rank -- you make E2 after six months of service, and many people enlist as an E3, given JROTC experience in high school or a certain number of college credits.

And arguing that E1's "work" is difficult as well. A third to half of their time in rank is from Basic Training -- two months for the Navy and Air Force, 10 weeks for Army, three months for Marines. After that point they'll have technical training (Marines do their technical training after follow on training; I believe the Army does follow on training after technical training. Both of those are more "general soldier" training, which the Navy and Air Force skip for further technical training in most cases.)

But basically seven days a week while in BMT, five days a week after that through training (not sure about Army/Marine follow-on training). Their work schedule after that would depend on career field, location, etc. If you're in a deployed zone, usually seven days a week. If you're not, you could be working wonky schedules -- 3 12's, 5/2 and 5/3 alternating schedules, 4 10's, etc., etc. But the vast majority work a typical five day schedule.

You'd also have to figure out how to work in physical training in general for military hours. Most units/services factor that into the work day, but not all do. PT was in addition to my normal hours while in tech school, but I always got 90 minutes three days a week after moving to a standard work schedule. Plus, do you consider that work, or a benefit? I considered it work while I was in, and a benefit now that I'm out. Please pay me to keep going to the gym.

But theoretically rank makes no difference in your work hours or leave accumulation, beyond BMT/training, which accounts for most if not all of your time as an E1.

[Rlh04d]

Here's the link. http://m.goarmy.com/benefits/total-compensation.m.html

Thanks. Found the actual study it's referencing ... it's from 2002:

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/01-16-dodcompensation.pdf

That's a good study, though. I'd be interested in seeing what those numbers are like now. For one thing, the pay of an E1 entering the military in 2015 is 153% the pay they were receiving in 2002. I'd also really like to see one that factors in the benefits of the Post 9/11 GI Bill from 2008, which provided a tremendous increase in education-related veteran's benefits. I also don't think it factors in more fringe benefits: the value of learning a trade that you otherwise would not have had on your post-military career prospects and similar factors.

On the other end, I'd also like to see one that doesn't rely so heavily on post-retirement benefits, considering not all military retire.

[wufan]

Whoa! That is an old study. I just figured the Army link would be more up to date. Why even bother posting something that is over a decade old.

[Rlh04d]

Whoa! That is an old study. I just figured the Army link would be more up to date. Why even bother posting something that is over a decade old.

I started to make an Army joke in my last post ... but, Army.

This one might be a bit better. It's still ancient (2007), and prior to improved veteran's benefits with the newer Post-911 GI Bill, but ... better: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...mpensation.pdf

Average Married Enlisted Member(A 22-year-old E-4 with four years of service, a working spouse, and two children)

Total Compensation in 2006 Dollars: 85,800

(I'm not sure why they included the reference to a working spouse, as their figures don't reference spousal earnings. Pay does go up with the increased number of dependents, though.)

One thing I don't like about those numbers is that they don't appear to take into account value of military Tuition Assistance into pay. That's an additional $4500 of compensation a year that all military people SHOULD be taking advantage of. I personally earned three degrees while in the military, including a Master's from the University of Oklahoma (Still, screw the B12) -- all in all I ended up earning about 150 undergraduate credits and 33 graduate credits for free, and I didn't use my education benefits for a third of my enlistment. They seem to take into account deferred education benefits, but not education benefits while in, which is a mistake. Although, to be fair, the Air Force has by far the best education benefits of the four branches, via the Community College of the Air Force system.

And the Congressional Budget Office testimony of Carla Tighe Murray in 2010 highlights my point about additional compensation not included in those figures:

Second, pay comparisons may ignore the value of training and education that are provided on the job. DoD generally tries to enlist capable young people with high school diplomas or some college education and then trains them for military life and for their occupational specialty. Civilian employers, by contrast, generally hire people who have already been trained, often at their own expense (although most large employers offer work-related education assistance). In addition, civilian employers are more likely to hire people who have more experience. Adding in the value of government provided training and education would generally make the noncash share of total military compensation even greater relative to civilian compensation.

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/04-28-MilitaryPay.pdf

[Rlh04d]

Here's an attempt at a more updated calculation. I used a DOD calculator to grab the average mainland US BAH rate and to estimate a tax advantage (while factoring in the 5% increase in 2015 not included in the calculator's numbers: http://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/site/news.cfm?ID=26):

http://militarypay.defense.gov/pay/calc/index.html

2006 numbers from: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...mpensation.pdf

	2006	2015
Basic Pay	24024	28216.8	(Flat Rate)
BAH	12012	15548.4	(Calculator, +5% inc.)
BAS	3432	4415.04	(Flat Rate)
Tax advantage	2574	3247.325	(Calculator, +5% inc.)
Tuition Assistance	?	4500	(Flat Rate)
Military Health care	7722	9666.309	(2006, *1.252)
Other noncash benefits	10296	12888.41	(2006, *1.252)
Veteran's benefits	11154	13962.45	(2006, *1.252)
Retiree health care	7722	9666.309	(2006, *1.252)
Retirement Pay	6864	8592.274	(2006, *1.252)
Total Pay:	85800	110703.3

1.252 was the average increase in the numbers I knew of from 2006 to 2015: base pay, BAH, and BAS. Base pay increased by 117.45%, BAH by 129.44%, and BAS by 128.64%.

So there's my estimation: Average 22 year old E4 with no education, married, and two kids, staying 'till retirement (the CBO's scenario), makes $110,703.30 in total compensation, annually (could also be higher based on enlistment bonus, reenlistment bonus, duty pays, etc.). And E5 is attainable by 22 for most branches. Even if I used the CBO's 2006 numbers for everything I don't know for sure, that 22 year old would still be at $99,685. At that point a teacher is just graduating college and looking for their first job.

Any logical comparison between "total compensation" of the two jobs at that point would have to be of those numbers against an entry level teacher. Principle-type positions that pay much better would fall into the same realm of that 22 year old E4 getting his degree and being picked up for the officer tree. Even "average teacher salary" numbers wouldn't really be relevant, since they'd only be attainable by around 30 or so, in which case these numbers would need to be updated for a 30 year old E5/E6 with 12 years of service.