KC Chiefs to Kansas?

[ABC]

I am surprised there hasn't been any chatter on this topic.

I can assure you that the possibility is real - I didn't think that three weeks ago.

There is a legislative hearing this afternoon.

The biggest part of the funding would be a new STAR bond district. STAR bonds have a spotty record in Kansas, but this kind of project was what was intended when the Legislature passed it in the late 1990s - to fund part of a project because it brings in outside money.

Basically, the increase in sales tax revenue from a vacant lot (theoretically) would be used to partially fund a stadium. To me, the question is figuring out how big the district would be, so it doesn't just move money around; try to be certain that this is new economic activity. Revenue from sports wagering would also be part of it.

Because staff, coaches and personnel would at least have some income tax liability to Kansas, there would be an increase in income tax revenue to Kansas.

While there are tons of studies that professional stadiums, arenas and teams don't add much to a local economy overall, this seems to me to be different. The economic activity happening in one state would now be happening in Kansas. So it might not do much for the overall economy in the KC Metro, it should add to Kansas.'

[SubGod22]

There's been chatter, it's just been in the NFL thread.

I'm cautiously optimistic, but waiting to see what Jackson County/Missouri pull out when this starts to look like a more likely scenario.

I do think that if done right, it would be a nice boost. There's already an area that offers more than just parking like the current Truman Sports Complex. And I'm sure that the Hunt family/Chiefs would own some surrounding land to develop as well to increase their wealth and that has to be attractive as well. Having the new Arrowhead out at Legends where people could choose to make a day out of things gives a lot of opportunity for people to make money. That increases tax revenue as well.

I'm not sure how much land in and around Legends is available for development, but can guarantee that there would be much more desire for that land in the area. And if the stadium was made with a retractable roof, the increased opportunities for large events (music concerts/Super Bowl) would only help the area. the TSC can have some of those events, but afterward people are also going to get out of that area as quick as possible to go do whatever it is they want to do next. At least at Legends, you have plenty of shopping and dining options right there and you don't have to be in a hurry. I think that's attractive to both the Chiefs and the Royals as it gives them other ways to also make money outside of the games themselves. Now, I'm not sure what the Royals end up doing, but there's a 100% chance they won't be at TSC in 2031. Sherman and Co. have made it obvious that they want to be able to build a ballpark district around their new stadium and that's obviously never going to happen out at TSC. I'm not sure that's quite as important to the Chiefs, but it can't hurt.

Topeka would be dumb not to make a strong play for this to happen. If the Chiefs choose to stay in Mizzery, make it be because they had to make a crazy offer and not just because Kansas played it cheap and stupid and held back. I know the STAR bonds can go a long way and don't cost the state or taxpayers money.

What kind of reserve does KS have in the gambling pool right now? How much would they be projected to have by 2030? I know at least a portion of the gambling funds were to be set aside for use to lure professional sports to Kansas. Just wondering what kind of potential dent that can put into any possible roadblocks or bidding wars that may arise with our neighbors to the east.

[Regul8te]

KcMO will lose the Royals to KcKS and there is a real chance they could lose the Chiefs too.

Kansas wants them more, has a bigger war chest and Kansans are tired of being subjugated to sports slavery by a bunch meth heads. It’s embarrassing!

[SubGod22]

Saw something yesterday that said Hunt wants something like 160 acres so they can have parking for 20k (I think) so Chiefs fans can keep the tailgating traditions alive.

[SubGod22]

With Kansas passing tax cuts, they will now move on to plans to bring the Chiefs and/or Royals to Kansas.

The current version to be discussed would have the state issuing bonds to finance 70%. They expect the Chiefs to put forth $500M to $700M towards a new stadium.

[ABC]

If this happens, Washburn might very well be the training camp for the Chiefs, with HQ and the practice facility in Johnson County.

It passed the House 84-40. The Kansas Senate now takes it up.

My understanding is that the Royals are very serious and might even purchased some land options in the east bottoms; basically right across the state line from Kemper. This would be in between the Kansas River and the State line. That gives them room for parking and an entertainment district, like many other MLB teams are doing or have done.

[SubGod22]

Mayor Lucas is accusing Kansas of dirty play and breaking the border war truce, though Gov. Kelly has said professional sports were never a part of that. Also, Missouri/Jackson Co. had their chance and told both teams to get bent. Some of those that were against the original plan seemed to have convinced themselves that there was no way either team would look to leave and felt they'd come back with a 'better' plan. With Kansas having the ability to issue STAR bonds and help alleviate some of the expenses up front, Missouri is going to have to give/spend a lot more than the original plan they voted down.

Fox 4 KC - Kansas lawmakers pass STAR bonds bill to lure Chiefs, Royals

The Kansas House and Senate overwhelmingly passed the STAR bond legislation that was put up for a vote on both floors – the idea to lure the Chiefs and the Royals across the state line.

“The state of Missouri is known for losing professional teams – not too long ago they just lost the St. Louis Rams, they used to have a professional hockey team the Scouts, they’re gone, they had the Kansas City Kings, they’re gone, so I ask you today, do you really want to put that kind of economic generation in the hands of the state of Missouri?” Rep. Sean Tarwater, (R-Kan.) who carried the bill, said on the House floor.

With the passage of this bill this means is that the state could pay for up to 70% of the cost of the stadium project.

Not gonna lie, I enjoy the jab thrown by Rep. Tarwater. Maybe a bit much, but still.

...The House voted 84-38 while the Senate was 27-8.

The importance of having the super majority support means that this is veto proof if Kansas Gov. Laura Kelly decided to do that.

Although that would be a surprise because every indication given from her office indicates she will sign this into law once it makes it to her desk.

There's no way in hell Kelly would veto this. She's pretty much championed this from the outset.

The Royals released the following statement Tuesday:

“We’re grateful to the Kansas Legislature for today’s bipartisan action that gives the state a pragmatic tool in which to achieve its economic development goals. The Kansas City Royals look forward to additional conversations as we evaluate where we will play baseball in the future. We will always prioritize the best interests of our fans, associates, and taxpayers in this process.”

The Chiefs released the following statement as well Tuesday:

“We appreciate that leaders in the State of Kansas proactively reached out to us for input on the proposed STAR Bond legislation. We support their efforts to expand the existing program and congratulate them on passing the legislation in special session. We look forward to exploring the options this legislation may provide.”

[ABC]

Pro teams that have left Missouri:

St. Louis: Browns, Cardinals, Rams, Hawks

KC: Scouts, Kings, Athletics

[Shockm]

If both the Chiefs and Royals decide to take the Kansas deal, do you think that all of those bonds can be sold? That seems like a lot of investment (2-3 billions of dollars in bonds), and seems like more than Kansans will take on. If the bonds aren't totally sold, doesn't the economic default fall on Kansas taxpayers? I understand that Kansas is going to require a district business sales tax to contribute to the stadium, and Kansas does have the advantage of taxes from Kansas gambling on Royals and Chiefs, but it seems like a huge possible default to taxpayers to me.

You pro economists (or other educated business people) need to fill in the gaps to us novice economists. .

[SubGod22]

If both the Chiefs and Royals decide to take the Kansas deal, do you think that all of those bonds can be sold? That seems like a lot of investment (2-3 billions of dollars in bonds), and seems like more than Kansans will take on. If the bonds aren't totally sold, doesn't the economic default fall on Kansas taxpayers? I understand that Kansas is going to require a district business sales tax to contribute to the stadium, and Kansas does have the advantage of taxes from Kansas gambling on Royals and Chiefs, but it seems like a huge possible default to taxpayers to me.

You pro economists (or other educated business people) need to fill in the gaps to us novice economists. .

Not a pro economist, but the funding for Kansas Speedway was a wild success and I would think that new stadiums, and the districts around them, would be even more successful. The Chiefs would be in an area that already generates a lot of traffic and would build up more around the new stadium. There would be year long sales tax revenues from the area. And if it has a roof, you're talking multiple large concerts and college football games as well, bringing in a lot of people from outside of the area and state to spend money. I don't know much about the East Bottoms area ABC mentioned, but if Sherman gets to build his ballpark district and it is a destination type of area, the same holds true for what we would see out at The Legends. There will be a number of new restaurants/bars, hotels, event venues and such in either area that is going to generate traffic and sales year round. Baseball also has the added perk of a guaranteed 81 games which would keep the area itself active for much of the spring, summer, and fall on its own.

Not saying there are zero risks. But I feel pretty good about those risks being far less than some try to claim and the odds of STAR bonds not being successful and completely paid back is slim.


From browsing Twitter/X, it seem most people don't think that KC, Jackson Co., and the state of Missouri will be able to work together to get something done on their side. Seems Missouri has a lot of top people who are very anti supporting sports through public funds. I get that as MO doesn't have a STAR bond program and they'd be looking at directly taking taxpayer money to give to the cause. It also sounds like Mayor Lucas doesn't really get along with the Jackson Co. leadership and that neither really get along with those in Jefferson City which will make a package harder to come by.

Outside of bragging rights, I think having one or both teams really can do a lot to help propel KS forward and being seen in a different light. Even without them, we've been doing a good job of attracting new businesses, expansion, and development all over the state and that looks to keep going. With taxes being lowered, and hopefully they'll go down a bit more down the road, we also set the state up to be more attractive to business and people looking for a better place to work and live. Kansas should cross the 3M population barrier within the next 10 years or so if we continue to push forward on lower taxes and economic development.

[ABC]

If both the Chiefs and Royals decide to take the Kansas deal, do you think that all of those bonds can be sold? That seems like a lot of investment (2-3 billions of dollars in bonds), and seems like more than Kansans will take on. If the bonds aren't totally sold, doesn't the economic default fall on Kansas taxpayers? I understand that Kansas is going to require a district business sales tax to contribute to the stadium, and Kansas does have the advantage of taxes from Kansas gambling on Royals and Chiefs, but it seems like a huge possible default to taxpayers to me.

You pro economists (or other educated business people) need to fill in the gaps to us novice economists. .

Bond-holders are on the hook, not the taxpayers. I supposed one way to look at it is all of the sales tax currently being generated in Missouri for the Chiefs and the Royals will now be in Kansas. The Chiefs and Royals and their owners will be buying some of the bonds. There is no reason to think attendance or activity goes down. In fact it might go up because there is nothing near the current stadiums that generate any sales tax.

I think a reasonable concern is not to shift retails sales from one place in Kansas to another. These projects should generate a lot of new sales tax.

AND Kansas will receive an increase in income tax revenue. As every player, staff, broadcasters, will pay income tax in Kansas for the games that are played here. The Chiefs estimated their players, staff etc, plus visiting players generate about $28 million in income tax revenue in Missouri. I do not know what the Royals generate.

If the HQs and practice facilities also move to Kansas, that would be even more income tax revenue.

[Shockm]

Bond-holders are on the hook, not the taxpayers. I supposed one way to look at it is all of the sales tax currently being generated in Missouri for the Chiefs and the Royals will now be in Kansas. The Chiefs and Royals and their owners will be buying some of the bonds. There is no reason to think attendance or activity goes down. In fact it might go up because there is nothing near the current stadiums that generate any sales tax.

I think a reasonable concern is not to shift retails sales from one place in Kansas to another. These projects should generate a lot of new sales tax.

AND Kansas will receive an increase in income tax revenue. As every player, staff, broadcasters, will pay income tax in Kansas for the games that are played here. The Chiefs estimated their players, staff etc, plus visiting players generate about $28 million in income tax revenue in Missouri. I do not know what the Royals generate.

If the HQs and practice facilities also move to Kansas, that would be even more income tax revenue.

Ok, Here is the one negative economic comment regarding the move that I have found in the article below.

Some lawmakers voiced deep reservations with the proposal and the long-term consequences to the state. Rep. Bob Lewis, a Garden City Republican, said studies uniformly show stadium projects almost never yield the benefits promised. Taxpayers end up footing the bill, he said. The legislation will allow the cannibalization of current sales tax revenue, Lewis argued. He also questioned claims that bondholders are the only individuals on the hook if a stadium project fails and said a default could place the state’s credit rating at risk. “Can you imagine the political pressure that would occur … if the bondholders are not being paid?” Lewis said.

https://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article289362315.html

[ABC]

Ok, Here is the one negative economic comment regarding the move that I have found in the article below.

Some lawmakers voiced deep reservations with the proposal and the long-term consequences to the state. Rep. Bob Lewis, a Garden City Republican, said studies uniformly show stadium projects almost never yield the benefits promised. Taxpayers end up footing the bill, he said. The legislation will allow the cannibalization of current sales tax revenue, Lewis argued. He also questioned claims that bondholders are the only individuals on the hook if a stadium project fails and said a default could place the state’s credit rating at risk. “Can you imagine the political pressure that would occur … if the bondholders are not being paid?” Lewis said.




https://www.kansas.com/news/politics...289362315.html

He is just wrong on the State picking up the slack and there is absolutely no evidence it could affect the State's credit rating. These are revenue bonds, not General obligation bonds.

As to benefits not yielding what is promised - I agree with that, in most cases. Basically, this will not create economic growth in the KC-area - it is likely to be a wash. Kansas gains, Missouri loses; however, the sales tax in Jackson County will go down 3/8 of a cent.

Having a team(s) and stadiums move across a state line in the same metro area has only happened one other time with the two NYC football teams. And a big difference there is the Giants were playing in Yankee Stadium and the Jets were playing in Shea Stadium.

There isn't a single one of the stadium economic studies that addressed a situation like this. If the Chiefs moved to San Antonio, KC does lose a bit and it wouldn't really impact much in the San Antonio area.

As to cannibalizing existing sales tax revenue - possibly some. It depends upon how big they draw the district. Obviously, Kansas isn't seeing any sales tax revenue from Chiefs and Royals tickets sales, parking or concessions. So clearly, that is all new revenue. And there will be new restaurants, hotels etc that are new revenue.

If existing businesses in the Legends area are also in the district, then only the increase in sales should be included. There are clear ways to prevent cannibilization/shifiting money.

Obviously before NASCAR and the Legends, there wasn't any sales tax being generated in that area. The NASCAR STAR bonds will be paid of 4,5 years early. I believe the STAR Bonds for the Sporting KC Park ahve already been paid off. Clearly both entities brought in commerce that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

[WuDrWu]

He is just wrong on the State picking up the slack and there is absolutely no evidence it could affect the State's credit rating. These are revenue bonds, not General obligation bonds.

As to benefits not yielding what is promised - I agree with that, in most cases. Basically, this will not create economic growth in the KC-area - it is likely to be a wash. Kansas gains, Missouri loses; however, the sales tax in Jackson County will go down 3/8 of a cent.

Having a team(s) and stadiums move across a state line in the same metro area has only happened one other time with the two NYC football teams. And a big difference there is the Giants were playing in Yankee Stadium and the Jets were playing in Shea Stadium.

There isn't a single one of the stadium economic studies that addressed a situation like this. If the Chiefs moved to San Antonio, KC does lose a bit and it wouldn't really impact much in the San Antonio area.

As to cannibalizing existing sales tax revenue - possibly some. It depends upon how big they draw the district. Obviously, Kansas isn't seeing any sales tax revenue from Chiefs and Royals tickets sales, parking or concessions. So clearly, that is all new revenue. And there will be new restaurants, hotels etc that are new revenue.

If existing businesses in the Legends area are also in the district, then only the increase in sales should be included. There are clear ways to prevent cannibilization/shifiting money.

Obviously before NASCAR and the Legends, there wasn't any sales tax being generated in that area. The NASCAR STAR bonds will be paid of 4,5 years early. I believe the STAR Bonds for the Sporting KC Park ahve already been paid off. Clearly both entities brought in commerce that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

Great stuff ABC thank you for weighing in.

[SubGod22]

As expected, Governor Kelly has signed the bill authorizing the pursuit and issuance of STAR bonds to bring the Chiefs and/or Royals across the border.