NCAA Expansion

[kcshocker11]

Kevin Harlan said on kc radio he believes the expansion is a done deal from what he called inside sources. Bill Self says there are merits to both sides. He doesnt want it but if he coach at a school(He used Ill St as his example) he would be all for it.

[beatmu]

Maybe I should put this in another thread, because it may get lost here, but I'm curious how some WSU fans would react to this idea:

what if the football playing D-I schools had a 32 team national tourney, and the playing field was leveled, so to speak, with a 32 or 48 team national tourney for the non-football playing schools (which make up about two-thirds of the DI basketball schools).

In other words, would WSU rather be playing in the NIT or for a national basketball title like the former D-IAA, now 'championship series' schools do in football?

It seems the BCS schools, with the huge amount of money they take in for their athletic departments in football, have a huge edge over the Missouri States and Wichita States.

I'd rather see the Shocks have a legit shot at winning a national title or at least making a Final Four against the 'Novas and Georgetowns, but perhaps that's just me.

Thoughts?

[Anthroshock]

I couldn't care less about football. We are talking about the basketball tournament.

As you said, Div-IAA. WSU has participated as a D-I member since its beginnings. Anything less than that would be a insult to the university and its supporters.

Maybe KU should play DIAA Baseball? I mean, they would be able to make the CWS every once in while.

[Aargh]

Maybe I should put this in another thread, because it may get lost here, but I'm curious how some WSU fans would react to this idea:

what if the football playing D-I schools had a 32 team national tourney, and the playing field was leveled, so to speak, with a 32 or 48 team national tourney for the non-football playing schools (which make up about two-thirds of the DI basketball schools).

In other words, would WSU rather be playing in the NIT or for a national basketball title like the former D-IAA, now 'championship series' schools do in football?

It seems the BCS schools, with the huge amount of money they take in for their athletic departments in football, have a huge edge over the Missouri States and Wichita States.

I'd rather see the Shocks have a legit shot at winning a national title or at least making a Final Four against the 'Novas and Georgetowns, but perhaps that's just me.

Thoughts?

That's a nice proposal if you want to destroy basketball at all but the FB-playing schools and then have ALL the money to yourselves.

The "second-rate" attitude it would create would damage attendance, financial support, recruiting, ability to hire coaches...pretty much everything.

Name 2 of the top 25 D1AA (or whatever it is that the MoValley FB teams play in) in any of the last 10 years. I'd never get past UNI and SIU and I only know those because I hear about them through basketball channels.

[beatmu]

Maybe I should put this in another thread, because it may get lost here, but I'm curious how some WSU fans would react to this idea:

what if the football playing D-I schools had a 32 team national tourney, and the playing field was leveled, so to speak, with a 32 or 48 team national tourney for the non-football playing schools (which make up about two-thirds of the DI basketball schools).

In other words, would WSU rather be playing in the NIT or for a national basketball title like the former D-IAA, now 'championship series' schools do in football?

It seems the BCS schools, with the huge amount of money they take in for their athletic departments in football, have a huge edge over the Missouri States and Wichita States.

I'd rather see the Shocks have a legit shot at winning a national title or at least making a Final Four against the 'Novas and Georgetowns, but perhaps that's just me.

Thoughts?

That's a nice proposal if you want to destroy basketball at all but the FB-playing schools and then have ALL the money to yourselves.

The "second-rate" attitude it would create would damage attendance, financial support, recruiting, ability to hire coaches...pretty much everything.

Name 2 of the top 25 D1AA (or whatever it is that the MoValley FB teams play in) in any of the last 10 years. I'd never get past UNI and SIU and I only know those because I hear about them through basketball channels.

Well, to the previous poster.... KU beat #1 LSU in baseball at Baton Rouge Friday night, so should I still be embarrassed that WSU has a historically better baseball program than KU? I don't begrudge WSU because of the fact they've invested more money (until recently) and had more success. That's just silly. WSU deserves the prestige it has in baseball. It doesn't affect my self-esteem in any way, shape or form. We have sucked at baseball for the most part until Price took over, but it will always be no higher than third in importance to KU fans behind football and basketball. So what?

And to the second poster... you say "second rate attitude" but what in the world is the classification of high major, mid major and low major do to our current system? Isn't the attitude already there? Would being I-AA make the Mo Valley any less exciting than it is now? Would you blow off going to St. Louis to support the Shocks because your school is now 'second rate' and not worthy of your support? That's seems a little odd to me.

WSU fans who do not want to add football back to play at the I-AA (FCS) level are just as guilty of arrogance as you claim KU fans to be. And, for the record, I know some WSU fans who have made that very statement. Are you too prestigious to play at Northern Iowa's or Illinois State's level in football but not basketball or baseball? See, the shoe can fit on more than one foot, but the fact is we don't like to have it pointed out when it fits our foot.

And by the way, Villanova and Appalachian State have been two of the top football programs for awhile in that division.

[newshock1234]

that is a terrible idea "beatmu", i dont wanna be a 2nd rate school. I know this is what BCS schools want, but i want no part of it.

[The Mad Hatter]

Maybe I should put this in another thread, because it may get lost here, but I'm curious how some WSU fans would react to this idea:

what if the football playing D-I schools had a 32 team national tourney, and the playing field was leveled, so to speak, with a 32 or 48 team national tourney for the non-football playing schools (which make up about two-thirds of the DI basketball schools).

In other words, would WSU rather be playing in the NIT or for a national basketball title like the former D-IAA, now 'championship series' schools do in football?

It seems the BCS schools, with the huge amount of money they take in for their athletic departments in football, have a huge edge over the Missouri States and Wichita States.

I'd rather see the Shocks have a legit shot at winning a national title or at least making a Final Four against the 'Novas and Georgetowns, but perhaps that's just me.

Thoughts?

That's a nice proposal if you want to destroy basketball at all but the FB-playing schools and then have ALL the money to yourselves.

The "second-rate" attitude it would create would damage attendance, financial support, recruiting, ability to hire coaches...pretty much everything.

Name 2 of the top 25 D1AA (or whatever it is that the MoValley FB teams play in) in any of the last 10 years. I'd never get past UNI and SIU and I only know those because I hear about them through basketball channels.

Well, to the previous poster.... KU beat #1 LSU in baseball at Baton Rouge Friday night, so should I still be embarrassed that WSU has a historically better baseball program than KU? I don't begrudge WSU because of the fact they've invested more money (until recently) and had more success. That's just silly. WSU deserves the prestige it has in baseball. It doesn't affect my self-esteem in any way, shape or form. We have sucked at baseball for the most part until Price took over, but it will always be no higher than third in importance to KU fans behind football and basketball. So what?

And to the second poster... you say "second rate attitude" but what in the world is the classification of high major, mid major and low major do to our current system? Isn't the attitude already there? Would being I-AA make the Mo Valley any less exciting than it is now? Would you blow off going to St. Louis to support the Shocks because your school is now 'second rate' and not worthy of your support? That's seems a little odd to me.

WSU fans who do not want to add football back to play at the I-AA (FCS) level are just as guilty of arrogance as you claim KU fans to be. And, for the record, I know some WSU fans who have made that very statement. Are you too prestigious to play at Northern Iowa's or Illinois State's level in football but not basketball or baseball? See, the shoe can fit on more than one foot, but the fact is we don't like to have it pointed out when it fits our foot.

And by the way, Villanova and Appalachian State have been two of the top football programs for awhile in that division.

You don't begrudge Wichita State's success in baseball, so you wouldn't mind if you could only play for a Division I championship in basketball if you had a national championship in baseball. Because that makes as much sense as your idea to make competing for a basketball championship dependent upon what your school does with football.

I don't begrudge that your university has invested in football any more than you begrudge that we have invested in baseball, but neither have anything to do with whether either of us should be allowed to be Division I in basketball.

Unless you would be willing to have KU demoted to Division IAA in basketball, don't come on the board of another school with a proud basketball tradition spewing this crap.

[Aargh]

Hey, beatmu, why don't you take you're elitist pile of garbage back to phog.net.

It's pretty bad when fans of another school come on here and tell us what a great deal it would be for us to accept status as a second-rate school so you would never have to play us ever again under any circumstances.

Then you're "We're the best and you don't deserve a chance to get on a court with us" attitude could never, ever again be challenged by the likes of a Bucknell, an Oral Roberts, or a Bradley.

Move your football program to the Valley. That's the level KU has played at for 90% of the last 20 years. Once in that time has KU won anything significant, and that was approximately the FB equivalent of WSU making the S16 back in 2006. So, KU is this great FB powerhouse at the top level because they've achieved about the same success WSU has achieved in basketball.

Yet, WSU is supposed to move to a lower division because we're a mid-major and we should know our place in the world. KU only has the budget they do because they play FB in a conference with a bunch of schools from Texas and Oklahoma that actually belong in D1A. The B12 North, as a football conference, is worse than the Missouri Valley as a basketball conference.

Get over yourself.

[beatmu]

that is a terrible idea "beatmu", i dont wanna be a 2nd rate school. I know this is what BCS schools want, but i want no part of it.

OK, so what I'm 'hearing' from you and the other posters is that membership in Division I basketball makes all Division I 'schools' equals?

Because really this isn't about 'schools', this is about athletic programs at schools. For example, if I'm a Hutchinson High School fan (and I'm not from Hutch, I grew up in Wichita, but bear with me), should I be less excited about being 5A football champions than I was about the previous football championships in 6A? Is there something less prestigious about being a 'smaller school'? Should I write off a trip to go watch the Salthawks play in 5A now that they're not playing with the 'big boys'?
My point is that Hutch High has little control over what classification they play in other than resorting to cheating on enrollment numbers if they choose to do so. You play with the cards you're dealt.

Having said that, doesn't it make sense to play for championships among peer institutions, at least from an athletic standpoint? Or is it about money?

Does it make you think less of being a student (alum/fan) at Wichita State if you acknowledge that your current instutitional peers from an atlhletics perspective are Missouri State, Southern Illinois and Northern Iowa, rather than the University of Oklahoma and the University of Texas, or UCLA?
Or, do you really see OU, Texas and UCLA as peers?

I'm using other XII member institutions here because being from Wichita, I recognize the emotional response some WSU fans have about KU. But the point remains the same.

Right or wrong, do you honestly think that non-baseball fans at OU, Texas or UCLA are going to recognize WSU athletics as a peer to their own programs? Because very few football playing schools support baseball in any way like they do their football programs.... even Texas or LSU, who are perennial powers.

Texas draws more fans to one or two football games than they do to a whole season of baseball games, so its not even on the same radar.

WSU has a very special thing going on with baseball, I'll give you that.

And, for the record, I bash KU fans on KU boards who look down their nose at WSU... so this isn't a KU bashing WSU perspective I'm bringing here. I'm just kind of amazed at the 'tude I see on this board some days.

[beatmu]

Hey, beatmu, why don't you take you're elitist pile of garbage back to phog.net.

It's pretty bad when fans of another school come on here and tell us what a great deal it would be for us to accept status as a second-rate school so you would never have to play us ever again under any circumstances.

Then you're "We're the best and you don't deserve a chance to get on a court with us" attitude could never, ever again be challenged by the likes of a Bucknell, an Oral Roberts, or a Bradley.

Move your football program to the Valley. That's the level KU has played at for 90% of the last 20 years. Once in that time has KU won anything significant, and that was approximately the FB equivalent of WSU making the S16 back in 2006. So, KU is this great FB powerhouse at the top level because they've achieved about the same success WSU has achieved in basketball.

Yet, WSU is supposed to move to a lower division because we're a mid-major and we should know our place in the world. KU only has the budget they do because they play FB in a conference with a bunch of schools from Texas and Oklahoma that actually belong in D1A. The B12 North, as a football conference, is worse than the Missouri Valley as a basketball conference.

Get over yourself.

Well, aargh, just admit that you're very willing to classify your peers as "second rate schools" because they play D-I FCS football, then I'll be very happy to go back to defending WSU on phog.net. TIA.

[Aargh]

OH!
MY!
GOD!

You've put your foot in your mouth and now you've gnawed off your leg up to about the knee.

If you think any of your posts are not degrading and berating to WSU basketball and WSU fans, then you need to learn how to read your own posts.

Yes, KU is great. Yes, KU fans cheer for the best basketball team God ever invented. Yes, we bow to your all-knowing and all-seeing wisdom of all things, because, as a KU fan, you certainly know what's best for the "little" school in Kansas" that just isn't on the same level as your mighty crown jewel.

You have about reached the pinnacle of elitism when you can't recognize it in your own words.

[beatmu]

OH!
MY!
GOD!

You've put your foot in your mouth and now you've gnawed off your leg up to about the knee.

If you think any of your posts are not degrading and berating to WSU basketball and WSU fans, then you need to learn how to read your own posts.

Yes, KU is great. Yes, KU fans cheer for the best basketball team God ever invented. Yes, we bow to your all-knowing and all-seeing wisdom of all things, because, as a KU fan, you certainly know what's best for the "little" school in Kansas" that just isn't on the same level as your mighty crown jewel.

You have about reached the pinnacle of elitism when you can't recognize it in your own words.

Jeebus, a little reading comprehension could go along way here... I didn't come here saying that I have all-knowing and all-seeing wisdom... I came here with a suggestion and asked for your thoughts on the matter. Because I do want to hear what other fans have to say and I want to understand why they have the opinions they do have... go back and read my original post, and then take your "I HATE KU" filters off. I didn't say you had to accept my opinion as gospel. TIA.

If you don't agree with me that it would be kind of cool for WSU to be in the running for a D-IAA basketball title year in and year out, I'm good with that.

[Aargh]

KU football is generally no better than the FB schools in the MoVal. I consider MoVal FB as a second-tier conference because of the exact thing you suggest for basketball.

It's bad enough that the BCS conferences relegated all but their chosen few to second tier status. Now you want to do the same in basketball.

As long as you're at it, why don't you recommend that WSU and other schools that don't have the academic endowments that KU has should be considered second-tier schools and a degree from them should be considered a "second-tier" degree.

[The Mad Hatter]

And, for the record, I bash KU fans on KU boards who look down their nose at WSU... so this isn't a KU bashing WSU perspective I'm bringing here. I'm just kind of amazed at the 'tude I see on this board some days.

So let me get this straight, you represent an institution that has a documented history of blocking Wichita State from growing large enough to be its rival (using the board of regents to block WSU from having grad programs, blatantly stealing the school of medicine in Wichita, etc.) then have the audacity to state that we should just accept it lying down when you want to take away our opportunity to compete on yet another front.

This is the same elitist idiocy that has been going on for decades. You actively work to keep another institution from having the resources to compete with you, and when they find ways to compete anyway (can anyone say Battle of New Orleans) you say that we have an attitude problem for daring to say that we want to continue to have the opportunity to compete.

In the business world, your approach would be called a monopoly and would be ruled illegal. The BCS approach is no different than that of the Robber Barons. Just because both groups had the most resources, doesn't mean that anyone is better off for letting them exclude smaller parties from competing with them.

Then again, if I was a KU fan, I guess I would be all for excluding teams like Bradley and Bucknell from the NCAAs. We all know that those kind of teams really aren't the peers of KU, so there is no reason to let them compete head to head.

[beatmu]

KU football is generally no better than the FB schools in the MoVal. I consider MoVal FB as a second-tier conference because of the exact thing you suggest for basketball.

It's bad enough that the BCS conferences relegated all but their chosen few to second tier status. Now you want to do the same in basketball.

As long as you're at it, why don't you recommend that WSU and other schools that don't have the academic endowments that KU has should be considered second-tier schools and a degree from them should be considered a "second-tier" degree.

Hate me if you must, but I believe there are some organizations who already do what you've suggested... have you read Fiske, Princeton Review or the US News and World on colleges and universities reports lately? There are people out there who don't live in Kansas who think KU is academically superior to WSU. Oops. What a bunch of shmucks!

I'm not a KU snob, aargh. I have family members who received good educations at WSU and are contributors to society. I realize there are plenty of those KU snobs to go around, so stay on the attack here if it helps you vent a little frustration. Your doctor probably has a KU degree, and he will appreciate your business.

At least we've gotten to the source and origin of your anger towards KU, I think that may be a good thing.