Blame Game

[ABC]

Ah, ok. I remember having found a news article from 2016 about his hiring but didn't remember he was interim for that long. I think the point remains. An interim AD absolutely could not make the call to fire a successful coach.

Sexton's AD duties ended April 2015 and then he left the University completely sometime later.

I don't think DB could have or should have fired GM then, but he should have dealt with it in some manner; suspension, anger management whatever. Who knows if that would have actually solved the problem, but clearly something festered up in Shaq's mind after he left WSU. I realize that players on are record saying that they knew something happened, but I am still not recalling if there was an eye witness.

As for the downward trend under GM over the last couple of years. Ebb and flow isn't all that unusual. Very few programs or coaches stay at the absolute top for an extended period of time. They go up and down. KU is a major exception. Look at Kentucky last year. Matt Painter at Purdue won the Big 10 in 2009-10, 6th two years later and then went two years without an NCAA invite. By 2016-17 Purdue won the Big 10, and again in 2018-19. 2019-20 (Covid) they were 10th in Big 10 with a 9-11 record.

OU (Lon Kruger) didn't make the NCAA tournament the season after they went to the Final 4.

Villanova (Jay Wright) didn't make the NCAA tournament just three seasons after the 2008-09 Final Four, before getting back to the tournament and winning two championships.

After back-back national championships, Florida didn't make the NCAA tournament in 2007-08 and 2008-09 before getting back on a hot streak with several elite 8s and a Final Four in 2013-14. And what happened at Florida in Donovan's last year before hopping to the NBA? They didn't make the tournament.

McDermott at Creighton has something similar; CU goes to three tournaments in a row and then two NITs and then back to the NCAA

I can go on and on and on.

[dregn]

Ah, ok. I remember having found a news article from 2016 about his hiring but didn't remember he was interim for that long. I think the point remains. An interim AD absolutely could not make the call to fire a successful coach.

The timing of everything that came out last year made me wonder if ES did want to do something about incidents involving GM which lead to his departure as the AD. The thought isn't based on anything other than public information and limited interactions with ES before he was the AD which allowed me to know a little about the type of person he is.

[Shockm]

I don't expect any coach to do that ... Though straight win percentages is misleading as a target. MVC vs AAC is gonna by default add more losses but hopefully better seeding (though who know with the "new" AAC)

Misleading? Not if you look at the totality of it.
An average of 24 Division 1 wins every year over 22 years is a HUGE accomplishment for any coach, and it shows the longevity of his WINNING. It’s a big reason Charles Koch and Devlin called Gregg Marshall a “Winner”.

[Woodrow]

I 100% agree with the confidence part. At least from the halftime at the Memphis game. That is the most concerning thing to me. If that continues, yes that is a problem. As of right now we have 1 half of one game where the team really lacked confidence. I'd even say by the end of the game they were back fighting. It was really about 10 minutes between the end of the first and start of the second where it looked like they gave up. So that is definitely something to monitor though a road game at Houston probably isn't going to change that (nor did Marshall ever really have success there).

As far as the "yet" comment. I think that was misunderstood. He hasn't corrected the problem. Will he? I dunno, but i'm not in the camp that all hope is lost because of a couple bad games. Especially considering both of those two teams (including the buy game) are ranking 20+ spots higher than us in the NET (they are ranked 52 and 54). They were Q2 games ... not some crazy Q4 loss. If we are going to call for coaches jobs after a couple bad games we wont have a program at all. No coach will sign up for that. We no longer can pay a good coach better than his other options.

Also ... i 100% challenge the "confidence that surrounded the team when Marshall was the coach is gone". What confidence? was it the confidence that led half the team to transfer? There was zero confidence coming into 2020-2021 around this team.

So yes, there are lots to be concerned about, not doubting that. Just saying that firing the coach as many appear to want to do is 1000000% the wrong choice. Say goodbye to any chance of success if we do.

You keep bringing up HCGM and his failing trends. Let's keep things in perspective. Look at his last year here. The team was 23-8. 11-7 in the AAC. We lost 2 times at home all year. 1 game to Houston by 11 and 1 game to Cincinnati by 1. We beat South Carolina on a neutral court by 23, Oklahoma at home by 5, Oklahoma St. on the road by 19, Ole Miss at home by 20, 21st ranked Memphis at home by 9. Our last 4 games of the year we beat Temple at home, beat SMU on the road, lost at Memphis by 8, and throttled Tulsa at home by 22 in the last game. Most thought we were going to get an at large to the NCAA but of course we'll never know since the AAC tournament was cancelled the night before it was scheduled. I would take that record right now for this year and call it a great success. I have little hope we will achieve anything close to it.

The players that left didn't leave because of confidence, they left because of playing time and not liking Marshall's methods. I'm not advocating bringing back Marshall but there is no doubt he was a better coach. I hope IB finds his way but I'm not seeing anything that gives me hope. Sad to say.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Don't have time to read the whole thread. Blame lies with (in order): Boatwrong, Golden, Isaac Brown. The first two chased off a Hall of Fame coach who was a proven winner. The latter isn't qualified to be in the position he is in.

[Stickboy46]

You keep bringing up HCGM and his failing trends. Let's keep things in perspective. Look at his last year here. The team was 23-8. 11-7 in the AAC. We lost 2 times at home all year. 1 game to Houston by 11 and 1 game to Cincinnati by 1. We beat South Carolina on a neutral court by 23, Oklahoma at home by 5, Oklahoma St. on the road by 19, Ole Miss at home by 20, 21st ranked Memphis at home by 9. Our last 4 games of the year we beat Temple at home, beat SMU on the road, lost at Memphis by 8, and throttled Tulsa at home by 22 in the last game. Most thought we were going to get an at large to the NCAA but of course we'll never know since the AAC tournament was cancelled the night before it was scheduled. I would take that record right now for this year and call it a great success. I have little hope we will achieve anything close to it.

The players that left didn't leave because of confidence, they left because of playing time and not liking Marshall's methods. I'm not advocating bringing back Marshall but there is no doubt he was a better coach. I hope IB finds his way but I'm not seeing anything that gives me hope. Sad to say.

We also lost to a bad temple team by 10 and Houston by 33. Wonder why those weren't mentioned?

"No doubt he was a better coach" ... While that very well be true ... You are comparing a coach with 20+ years of experience to one with 1.5.

[ShockRef]

Ok. A threesome may be better and a little less uncomfortable, but not on the public channel

M,
You are one sick bastard.

That is all.

[ShockRef]

I'm neither advocating for or against ADDB with this post, but I feel like there is some revisionist history or lack of reason going on here. And I'm going to preface this by stating that I believe the allegations against Marshall are true for reasons that don't need to be rehashed here.

1. Eric Sexton was the AD when the incident with Shaq happened. Assuming he knew about it, it's his failure to not have dealt with it then. ADDB couldn't have done anything about it until it came to light publicly. Then, once Marshall denied the allegations, there was no outcome that didn't involve Marshall either resigning or getting fired. Either of which was going to cost dearly in terms of money and image. Lay that whole debacle at the feet of Marshall and Sexton.

2. ADDB and IB were handed a difficult situation. IB and the team made the absolute best of it by winning the conference. Major kudos to them, but it was the curse in disguise.

3. What would be the point of an active coaching search in the middle of the season? Only a few unemployed coaches were reasonably available and according the the media, weren't interested (at least the case for Matta. I don't recall if there were others). Plus, the money wasn't going to be there to hire a quality coach, except possibly Chris Jans. While there appears to be bad blood with he and ADDB (there's a strike against any AD that won't hire the best due to a personal issue), that wasn't going to happen due to my next point.

4. The climate among college basketball and the media at the time was that black assistant coaches weren't getting a fair shot at head coaching jobs. I don't think ADDB had any reasonable choice but to give the job to IB. I also think this factored into contract negotiations. A low-ball offer and acceptance would have been lambasted by the media. He would have effective fired himself had he not done what he did. I suppose some could blame him for that. I can't.

5. There wasn't a ton of time to see how moving to the AAC would affect recruiting under Marshall and staff. But I think it's safe to say it was underwhelming. We all felt like the teams underachieved. The slide had already begun.

So, where does the current blame for the state of men's basketball belong? I think Marshall and Sexton deserve a large portion (points 1 and 5). Circumstances, too. (Points 2, 3 and 4).

What about future blame should the ship continue taking on water? All of the above, plus IB, staff and ADDB if he lets it go on too long.

Like it or not, IB will get four years (not counting last year) to turn things around and get the program headed in the right direction.

Sound, supported and reasonable. Well done Royal!

That is all.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

Two things: Eye witnesses to Shaq’s allegations are zero. None. Zip. Zilch. All that support him believe his viewpoint. We all know that there are many sides to every truth. I have personally watched fHCGM rip players a new one. Watched him rip Coaches for not doing their job. None were to a level that Bobby Knight did during games.

fHCGM was an asshole. I have had multiple former players tell me they were the man they were due to him, but wouldn’t invite them to Christmas/Wedding/Reunion etc. Much like many who have served will give credit to their Drill Sargent but won’t invite him to similar.

I don’t have enough info to have a position on the issue with the assistant. I know many assistants have been with him many years, and stayed after the accusation. But that doesn’t necessarily mean much.

I know there are roughly 50k reasons why these stories came to light when they did. And many more reasons why certain members of the press shined the spotlight. Similar to Mangino, the meany heads that don’t play nice with the press seem to always get caught up in BS like this so someone can say “I did that”.

fHCGM was a great coach and developed many players/coaches. He was also a confident asshole. All these “feelings” stories piss me off and make me want to be fHCGM.

I love me some Coach Brown. You will have to dig deep to find a better man that has ever been affiliated with our program. I just hate that he was put in a position to fail by this administration.

It will be a long 3 years Shocker fans. We need to support the program through thick and thin like I said we needed to do with baseball until we can get to next step. Unfortunately that means losing Coach Brown, which might be a bigger loss than fHCGM, but not as much as losing fACCJ and fACGH. fACCJ should be on the top of the list to replace him and fACGH should be hired as Associate Head Coach. Unfortunately, our administration has burned those bridges. But that is another post.

[Woodrow]

We also lost to a bad temple team by 10 and Houston by 33. Wonder why those weren't mentioned?

"No doubt he was a better coach" ... While that very well be true ... You are comparing a coach with 20+ years of experience to one with 1.5.

I didn't bring up every game. There were also other 20 point wins. Since you brought up the Houston 33 point loss, we did win by 17 at UCF in the following game and by 25 in the the next game to Tulane. If we play Houston close and win the next couple of games by 20 plus I'll reconsider but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm comparing the previous Shocker coach with the current one. I've been a Shocker fan since the late 70's. I've seen what happens when the wrong coach is hired. I wanted Cohen, Thompson, Randy Smithson to be good. I want IB to be good too. I just don't see it.

[ShockerFever]

This ...

There are lots of reasons for concern. Not going to doubt that. But realistically HCIB has been on the job what ... 13-14 months at this point? He took over mid November last year on an interim basis? He's had 1 full offseason to be a head coach. So far his recruiting has been hit and miss. 1 hit (Pohto) and 2 appear to be misses (Grant and Pleasant). Though Grant might still become serviceable. Offense hasn't looked great, but it didn't look great the last 2 years of Marshall's tenure either (and that's backed up by KenPom). So yea ..we need to see improvement but the people on the ledge calling for his job are just being a little insane.

If we want to crater our program permanently .. go ahead and fire HCIB (if we could even find the money). I'm sure you will have great coaches lined up to take a job, that can't afford to pay much because we are already paying 2 coaches and that just fired a coach coming off an AAC title (covid helped or not) and Coach of the year because he's 9-4 to start the year. Might as well shut the program down if we do that because we won't be hiring anyone worthwhile at that point.

Anyone that is advocating for firing HCIB is living in lala land where there aren't repercussions for your actions.

Mike Cohen would love to have you around.

[ShockerFever]

We also lost to a bad temple team by 10 and Houston by 33. Wonder why those weren't mentioned?

"No doubt he was a better coach" ... While that very well be true ... You are comparing a coach with 20+ years of experience to one with 1.5.

Why is a Top 40 program hiring a person with ZERO head coaching experience? If you felt they had their shoes tied after the “AAC title” last year, then why did said coach receive a 6 year deal with that type of cash involved?

[Horn28Clem30]

We also lost to a bad temple team by 10 and Houston by 33. Wonder why those weren't mentioned?

"No doubt he was a better coach" ... While that very well be true ... You are comparing a coach with 20+ years of experience to one with 1.5.

I will be willing to bet any amount of money that A) Brown doesn't last a fraction of that long and B) his resume won't hold a candlestick to Marshall's. I tried giving Brown the benefit of the doubt, but the last year and a half has been embarrassing to me. This program was a top 10 overall program for the better part of a decade. Makes me sick watching the cracks swiftly developing as we go

[Dan]

Sexton's AD duties ended April 2015 and then he left the University completely sometime later.

I don't think DB could have or should have fired GM then, but he should have dealt with it in some manner; suspension, anger management whatever. Who knows if that would have actually solved the problem, but clearly something festered up in Shaq's mind after he left WSU. I realize that players on are record saying that they knew something happened, but I am still not recalling if there was an eye witness.

As for the downward trend under GM over the last couple of years. Ebb and flow isn't all that unusual. Very few programs or coaches stay at the absolute top for an extended period of time. They go up and down. KU is a major exception. Look at Kentucky last year. Matt Painter at Purdue won the Big 10 in 2009-10, 6th two years later and then went two years without an NCAA invite. By 2016-17 Purdue won the Big 10, and again in 2018-19. 2019-20 (Covid) they were 10th in Big 10 with a 9-11 record.

OU (Lon Kruger) didn't make the NCAA tournament the season after they went to the Final 4.

Villanova (Jay Wright) didn't make the NCAA tournament just three seasons after the 2008-09 Final Four, before getting back to the tournament and winning two championships.

After back-back national championships, Florida didn't make the NCAA tournament in 2007-08 and 2008-09 before getting back on a hot streak with several elite 8s and a Final Four in 2013-14. And what happened at Florida in Donovan's last year before hopping to the NBA? They didn't make the tournament.

McDermott at Creighton has something similar; CU goes to three tournaments in a row and then two NITs and then back to the NCAA

I can go on and on and on.

I totally agree with the ebb and flow comment and am fine with us finishing mid pack on occasion. The biggest difference is that a lot of schools, like many you mentioned, have the luxury of resources and national brand names to fall back on in order to keep the momentum going. Schools like us can easily fade into obscurity for long periods if we have major missteps or setbacks that last too long. I’d say we’re closer to Loyola or Houston when it some to basketball brand than we are to Villanova, Kentucky or even Purdue. Houston is quite a few steps ahead of us right now but could easily slip back if they lost their coach and had a bad hire.

[Dan]

Why is a Top 40 program hiring a person with ZERO head coaching experience? If you felt they had their shoes tied after the “AAC title” last year, then why did said coach receive a 6 year deal with that type of cash involved?

I don’t know, maybe ask Notre Dame football?