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Wichita State Shockers vs. UNLV Game Thread 11-21-21

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  • Originally posted by Shockm View Post

    Unless there is some sarcasm in your statement, you don’t know the play we are talking about, so yes crazy might be descriptive.

    At about 13:40, An errant UNLV pass was intercepted on our defensive end by Qua ( a PG). Qua pushed the ball up court (middle), with RC4 on his right, and Monzy on his left (just a step or two back, on the left (3 on 1). The next trailing player was Kenny P. ( so actually a 4 on 1) who was trailing Qua in the middle. The only defensive player was McCabe. Qua passed the ball to RC, and McCabe slid over in front of RC (just outside the protected arc under our basket). RC took no dribbles but two steps going up to slam it, and instead slammed into a set McCabe. The play should have been an immediate pass back to Qua Grant for an uncontested layup. Instead of converting 2 points, RC and the Shox got a charge call.
    I don't care what single play your talking about. I'm referring to multiple plays where RCIV was the primary ball-handler. And he's not the only one that handled the ball when he shouldn't have...

    Now, for a really crazy description of an unsuccessful fast-break read the post above this one and you'll see a poster, that would pie, who thinks the best ball handler on the court pushing the ball on the break, in the middle of the court, and then stopping at the free throw line and dishing to either the right wing or the left or shooting a 15' wouldn't be as good as having that very same best ball-handler running-the-break-on-the-wing. Do you need any further explanation beyond that? Holy ****! Pie, you're joking right? Seriously.

    We don't need Taylor to explain what constitutes a good fast break because that's taught at the biddy level, and then every level beyond, no? You think HCIB doesn't know that? Oh, wait...

    Why wasn't this a problem for the team last year?
    Last edited by ShockingButTrue; November 24, 2021, 12:46 AM.

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    • Originally posted by ShockingButTrue View Post

      I don't care what single play your talking about. I'm referring to multiple plays where RCIV was the primary ball-handler. And he's not the only one that handled the ball when he shouldn't have...

      Now, for a really crazy description of an unsuccessful fast-break read the post above this one and you'll see a poster, that would pie, who thinks the best ball handler on the court pushing the ball on the break, in the middle of the court, and then stopping at the free throw line and dishing to either the right wing or the left or shooting a 15' wouldn't be as good as having that very same best ball-handler running-the-break-on-the-wing. Do you need any further explanation beyond that? Holy ****! Pie, you're joking right? Seriously.

      We don't need Taylor to explain what constitutes a good fast break because that's taught at the biddy level, and then every level beyond, no? You think HCIB doesn't know that? Oh, wait...

      Why wasn't this a problem for the team last year?
      If I’m the one defender trying to guard three guys on the break and you pull up at the free throw line I’ve done my job.

      I’m ok with you shooting. You might make it but it’s a lower percentage look than a dunk or a layup.

      If you pass I'm already in position to react and contest no matter which guy you go to. If I’m a particularly quick, rangy or have good anticipation I might even have a chance to intercept the pass.

      If you instead get in one of the lanes on either side of the basket it puts me in a bind. I can try to guard you in which case dish to your teammate. Or I can try prevent the pass to your teammate and you’ll lay it in instead.

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      • Originally posted by ShockingButTrue View Post
        RCIV. Ain't. A. Point. Guard. And. Never. Will. Be. End. Of. Story (but we all knew that).

        Because, ideally, it would be a good idea to have your best ball handler pushing the ball up the floor, in most situations. I know it sounds crazy...
        but instead let’s throw an outlet to Mo, because he should be dribbling on a fast break from the logo.

        People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. -Isaac Asimov

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        • Originally posted by pie n eye View Post

          If I’m the one defender trying to guard three guys on the break and you pull up at the free throw line I’ve done my job.

          I’m ok with you shooting. You might make it but it’s a lower percentage look than a dunk or a layup.

          If you pass I'm already in position to react and contest no matter which guy you go to. If I’m a particularly quick, rangy or have good anticipation I might even have a chance to intercept the pass.

          If you instead get in one of the lanes on either side of the basket it puts me in a bind. I can try to guard you in which case dish to your teammate. Or I can try prevent the pass to your teammate and you’ll lay it in instead.
          But what happens if I pick up my dribble and hold the ball as I crash the hoop, neither passing nor shooting?
          People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. -Isaac Asimov

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          • Originally posted by pie n eye View Post

            If I’m the one defender trying to guard three guys on the break and you pull up at the free throw line I’ve done my job.

            I’m ok with you shooting. You might make it but it’s a lower percentage look than a dunk or a layup.

            If you pass I'm already in position to react and contest no matter which guy you go to. If I’m a particularly quick, rangy or have good anticipation I might even have a chance to intercept the pass.

            If you instead get in one of the lanes on either side of the basket it puts me in a bind. I can try to guard you in which case dish to your teammate. Or I can try prevent the pass to your teammate and you’ll lay it in instead.
            Yep. Freshman will be Freshman. He sucks on the fast break.
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            • "But here are the facts: for as good as WSU’s press defense has been this season, the transition offense has negated a lot of that by being horrendous."

              Read more at: https://www.kansas.com/sports/colleg...#storylink=cpy

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              • Originally posted by pinstripers View Post
                "But here are the facts: for as good as WSU’s press defense has been this season, the transition offense has negated a lot of that by being horrendous."

                Read more at: https://www.kansas.com/sports/colleg...#storylink=cpy
                “Okay Taylor, a simple 'bad' would’ve been just fine.”
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                • Interesting that he notes that Abidde will almost certainly redshirt along with Ricks. I knew Ricks would but that is good news about Abidde.

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                  • Originally posted by AZ Shocker View Post

                    Yep. Freshman will be Freshman. He sucks on the fast break.
                    Not exactly.

                    I went back and watched the play myself. It happens at the 13:40, 2nd half mark if anyone is interested.

                    The ball is going right to left. Initially everyone does the correct thing.

                    Qua intercepts the pass at the free throw line in the middle of the court. He immediately pushes the ball up court. When he reaches half court he starts to veer to his left so he will occupy the lane on the left side of the rim while Ricky is streaking down the right side of the rim. Monzie busts his ass from almost the other baseline and eventually trails the play in the middle of the court. It’s textbook.

                    Things go wrong when Qua reaches the three point line. The defender is still running back and his body is positioned in a way that the only guy he can really defend is Ricky. Qua should have continued down the left side and laid it in.

                    My final verdict: Ricky Council found not guilty of screwing up this fast break. He was put in a bad spot by his teammate.
                    Last edited by pie n eye; November 24, 2021, 09:59 AM.

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                    • Also, sliding over at the last second by the defender is not defense and should never be called a charge.
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                      • However, there was another fast break earlier in the game in which Ricky was the ball handler and he attempted a laughably bad ally oop pass to Dexter that flew helplessly out of bounds when he could have just continued to the basket and flushed.

                        Does Ricky Council “suck” on the fast break? That’s a little strong for me but I agree that the team in general needs some extra practice in that area. It’s something I expect to see improve a lot because we have a few guys, like Ricky, who should be dangerous on the run.

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                        • Originally posted by pie n eye View Post

                          Not exactly.

                          I went back and watched the play myself. It happens at the 1:00:23 mark if anyone is interested.

                          The ball is going right to left. Initially, everyone does the correct thing.

                          Qua intercepts the pass at the free throw line in the middle of the court. He immediately pushes the ball up court. When he reaches half court he starts to veer to his left so he will occupy the lane on the left side of the rim while Ricky is streaking down the right side of the rim. Monzie busts his ass from almost the other baseline and eventually trails the play in the middle of the court. It’s textbook.

                          Things go wrong when Qua reaches the three point line. The defender is still running back and his body is positioned in a way that the only guy he can really defend is Ricky. Qua should have continued down the left side and laid it in.

                          My final verdict: Ricky Council found not guilty of screwing up this fast break. He was put in a bad spot by his teammate.
                          I remember thinking that Qua gave it up too early and should have made the defender commit and then lobbed it up for C4.
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                          • Originally posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
                            Also, sliding over at the last second by the defender is not defense and should never be called a charge.
                            In general I agree but I don’t think that’s what happened on this play. It looked like a pretty clear charge to me.

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                            • Originally posted by shock View Post

                              But what happens if I pick up my dribble and hold the ball as I crash the hoop, neither passing nor shooting?
                              That’s a travel. Why do you ask? Was there another play during the game in which that happened?

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                              • Originally posted by SubGod22 View Post

                                I remember thinking that Qua gave it up too early and should have made the defender commit and then lobbed it up for C4.
                                I don't think you are saying this, but when 3 on 1 with a 4th trailing Shocker, even if the better play would have been a lob (although how many lob dunk passes have we seen screwed up by the Shockers this year), dunk to RC, there is no way they should have not executed 2 points. LIke I said earlier, all he had to do is return the pass to Grant, and it is a two point layup.

                                In my high school years, we didn't have anyone who could dunk the ball on our fast breaks (certainly not a lob dunk), and we still executed the 3 on 1 drills in practice, and usually in games.

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