Warren (Armstrong) Jabali Recognized Finally

[Shockm]

So that you understand the following, I'm not saying Warren wasn't a great player, had great numbers, and a freak athlete, all of which got him to the ABA where he was successful.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say he was simply a victim of "the good old boys".

1) To my knowledge, he was never an All-American in any shape or form. Something all 5 current retired numbers were, even if Levingston's was pretty weak.

2) One Shocker team (17-10) did make the NIT (which was second tier by that time), but was filled with Ralph Miller holdovers. His other 2 teams finished 14-12 and 12-14. The other 5 all played on successful to very successful teams. This may not be "fair", but it is what it is.

3) While he had great overall stats, he never led the Shockers in scoring finishing tied for 2nd, 3rd, and 2nd. Jamie Thompson led the team 2 years and Ron Washington the other year. Scoring is by far not everything, but it does speak loudly. He did lead the Shocks in rebounding all 3 years.

4) It may be more correct to say he was a victim of playing on lesser teams and for Gary Thompson.

Most of your comments are very accurate with a couple of exceptions.

#2) The 17-10 Shocker NIT team was one of 14 teams that year and was very good. Only 22 teams made the NCAA Tournament that year (one from the MVC), so only 36 teams played in a National Tournament.

#3 was mostly correct. Overlooked though is that he was a 6'4" player with a 44" vertical and a very muscular body. He should have played guard on the perimeter, and if he was allowed to do so, he may have had similar skills to players like Michael Jordan, etc. but because of his wide ranging skills (and lack of other players skills), he often played in the post instead of the perimeter. On defense, he often played in the middle of a zone and guarded Centers such as Wes Unseld of Louisville who at 6'8" and 240 or 250 was so much bigger (of course Unseld played long career in the NBA). Finally in the ABA, Warren played on the perimeter where he belonged and he was Rookie of the Year.

#4 was spot on correct.

I'm not sure that his jersey should be hung in the rafters. Maybe his career compared more to that of Cheese Johnson, but with a surrounding cast like X Man, Antoine, Cliff, etc. had, he most likely would be already hanging.

[1972Shocker]

#3 was mostly correct. Overlooked though is that he was a 6'4" player with a 44" vertical and a very muscular body.

Not exactly true either. Warren was only 6'2". As far as guard skills go. Yes. Perhaps one of his best skills was his passing. One of the very best, if not the best, assist men in Shocker history. Which shows not only was he an unbelievable physcial specimen but he was also an unselfish, team player.

Fred is the Shocker all-time career assist leader with 637 assists. Toure' is 2nd at 430. Warren is 3rd at 429.

However, that is a bit misleading. Warren played when freshman were not eligible and had to play on a freshman team. Warren also did not have the luxury of playing in a lot of post-season games. Fred accumulated his numbers over 141 games. Toure' over 139 games. Warren in a relatively measly 78 games.

On a per game basis Fred averaged 4.52 APG, Toure' averaged 3.09 APG and Warren averaged 5.50 APG.

Had Warren played in 141 games he would have ended up with around 775 career assists.

[Kung Wu]

Warren in a relatively measley 78 games.

That's pretty darn incredible. I mean, really just VERY incredible. Did they not keep stats or combine stats for the freshman team?

[1972Shocker]

Just comparing Warren statistically to the great Fred Van Vleet, who probably will end up in the rafters, I would say Warren stacks up pretty well.

Just comparing their Sophomore, Junior and Senior years Fred averaged 12.4 PPG, 5.4 APG and 3.9 RPG. Warren, who was 2 inches taller than Fred, averaged 16.7 PPG, 5.5 APG and 10.8 RPG,

Also I think you could argue the Valley was a stronger league during Warren's days as a Shocker than they were in Fred's time and Warren's supporting cast was probably not as good as Fred's overall.

I have always believed Warren deserved to be in the rafters. Maybe he will be someday but it is too bad that did not happen during his lifetime.

It would be nice if they added Warren at the same time they add Fred when and if that happens.

[1972Shocker]

That's pretty darn incredible. I mean, really just VERY incredible. Did they not keep stats or combine stats for the freshman team?

I think they had stats but don't include those in career totals and probably shouldn't because the level of competition was no where close to what level of "varsity" play. I don't recall Dave The Rave's freshman numbers but I remember them being off the charts like a scoring average in the 40's or something like that.

[ShockTalk]

Most of your comments are very accurate with a couple of exceptions.

#2) The 17-10 Shocker NIT team was one of 14 teams that year and was very good. Only 22 teams made the NCAA Tournament that year (one from the MVC), so only 36 teams played in a National Tournament.

#3 was mostly correct. Overlooked though is that he was a 6'4" player with a 44" vertical and a very muscular body. He should have played guard on the perimeter, and if he was allowed to do so, he may have had similar skills to players like Michael Jordan, etc. but because of his wide ranging skills (and lack of other players skills), he often played in the post instead of the perimeter. On defense, he often played in the middle of a zone and guarded Centers such as Wes Unseld of Louisville who at 6'8" and 240 or 250 was so much bigger (of course Unseld played long career in the NBA). Finally in the ABA, Warren played on the perimeter where he belonged and he was Rookie of the Year.

#4 was spot on correct.

I'm not sure that his jersey should be hung in the rafters. Maybe his career compared more to that of Cheese Johnson, but with a surrounding cast like X Man, Antoine, Cliff, etc. had, he most likely would be already hanging.

Maybe splitting hairs here.

#2 He played on 1 quality team who's record, when combined with the other 2 years when he was a junior and senior, was 43-36. That, along with no All-American honors, to compete with the other 5 players, makes it a little tough.

#3 I believe I did say he was a "freak athlete" and had great numbers.

As the bar has been set so far compared to the other 5, Warren comes up short (not saying it's fair). Frankly, I'm one who was boarder line on Levingston. If we ever go to not retiring the number, Warren and a few others might get their jerseys hung. That includes McBurney who was an All-American.

[1972Shocker]

I understand the All-American standard although I'm not sure that is a clear objective standard. All-American teams come and go and their standards change and the college basketball environment changes. There are so many really, really good players who never receive All-American status especially in this day and age.

I have no problem with a group of honorable Shocker historians making this decision subjectively but very selectively to honor Shocker greats who have had truly great careers as Shockers. I suppose that is what the Shocker Hall of Fame is but I have no problem honoring the best of the best. Maybe they should put up a player every year for the fans to vote in or out that would require a a 75% yes vote and a minimum number of votes. If a player fails after 3 attempts he or she is done.

[im4wsu]

I understand the All-American standard although I'm not sure that is a clear objective standard. All-American teams come and go and their standards change and the college basketball environment changes. There are so many really, really good players who never receive All-American status especially in this day and age.

I have no problem with a group of honorable Shocker historians making this decision subjectively but very selectively to honor Shocker greats who have had truly great careers as Shockers. I suppose that is what the Shocker Hall of Fame is but I have no problem honoring the best of the best. Maybe they should put up a player every year for the fans to vote in or out that would require a a 75% yes vote and a minimum number of votes. If a player fails after 3 attempts he or she is done.

Isn't that what the Hall of Fame is for?

[1972Shocker]

Isn't that what the Hall of Fame is for?

Did I not address that in my post?

[im4wsu]

Did I not address that in my post?

Sorry, you did, dismissively. Do you really want two HOF's, one in the rafters and the existing one?

[1972Shocker]

Sorry, you did, dismissively. Do you really want two HOF's, one in the rafters and the existing one?

We already had that don't we. The question how should those best of the best acknowledgements be determined. I don't think the All-America standard is the way to go. We have All-Americans all over the place in our Track and Field Programs and they receive no special treatment. The rafters is basically a Ring of Honor award. The question in my mind is what is the best way to most appropriately include players in the Ring of Honor.

Personally, I think Warren (Armstrong) Jabali is deserving. But I don't expect everyone to agree with that. Obviously, you don't and that is perfectly fine.

[Kung Wu]

I don't think the All-America standard is the way to go.

Right! I don't even like Americans.