Future?

[Shockm]

I think that most agree we'll be good again, but I also think most agree that this was a much bigger hiccup than anyone ever could have envisioned after the last 6 or 7 years of WSU basketball.

If you put this years Shockers games on a graph, the graph would read like the Stock market during the last 5-6 months. Up and down. I just hope it shows an upward trend by March.

[abdullah_sharif]

major market indexes are due for a pullback again.. hopefully the shox will diverge.

[shelback]

Really has any Freshman thrived in coaches system? I cant recall any really breaking out as Freshman! Fred made some big shots late in his Freshman season. Ron, Shaq, Rod Brown, Wesell all had redshirt years. JC point guards have traditionally struggled the first year
We always hear that coach Marshall runs a demanding and complex system it must be true. I think by next year these guys will be a well oiled machine and business as usual.

[abdullah_sharif]

toure exceeded my expectations as a freshman.

[Shockm]

Toure’s team was a bottom dweller his Freshman year. Toure had his warts too but he was one of the few bright spots as a Freshman that the team had.

[ShockerFever]

Really has any Freshman thrived in coaches system? I cant recall any really breaking out as Freshman! Fred made some big shots late in his Freshman season. Ron, Shaq, Rod Brown, Wesell all had redshirt years. JC point guards have traditionally struggled the first year
We always hear that coach Marshall runs a demanding and complex system it must be true. I think by next year these guys will be a well oiled machine and business as usual.

Exactly.

Some of these clowns just don't realize what having a roster full of true freaking freshmen is all about. They expect them to all be clicking and carrying this team to the Final Four in year 1. It's honestly appalling how spoiled and incompetent some fans are.

[proshox]

I don’t expect them to be a well oiled machine, but there should be more flashes of skill.

With that stated, every guy on the roster would have fit in with past rosters similarly to a Zach Brown or Rashard Kelly. I am just not sure which of the wings and guards can become go-to guys based on the current form.

[pogo]

MB

[Aargh]

The best thing about Freshmen is that they become Sophomores. There is room for improvement. Compared to the hype this class had, there's a lot of room for improvement.

Of next year's Soph's, I think Udeze and Chandler can be serviceable or better as early as next year Udeze's injury is going to hold him back and may require off-season surgery, which would essentially make him a Fr again next year as far as experience and progress are concerned.

Allen will be a player.

Past that I see two projects, one trfr to a lower program, and one mystery.

Big guys take time to develop and usually show marked improvement year to year. Wings and guards usually have their shooting touch pretty much under control before they get to college. There are more like Brown (little shooting improvement over his career) than like Cotton, who busted his butt and showed significant improvement.

Stevenson is excellent at every aspect of the game, except for shooting and defense. He seems to have an attitude where he might work hard enough in the offseason to begin overcoming those problems. He needs to.

Replacing McDuffie with Allen could be a wash. The height difference might be a negative, but Allen's stronger body could offset that. Replacing Haynes-Jones with a Fr should be expected to be a downgrade. Team cohesiveness should improve once the stark contrast between Sr's and first-year players is eliminated. Throw in the expected progress from year to year and I think it more than offsets the loss from replacing SHJ, but not enough to expect an NIT bid next year.

NCAA bid by the time this year's Fr are Sr's. Then, unless that huge class is thinned out, we're back to this year with too many first-year players after the big class graduates.

I don't think this makes me less of a fan than the Sunshine Pumpers. I just have lower expectations for the team I support. I expect a coach with a paycheck in the top 10 of college coaches to be able to evaluate talent and recruit and sign high-quality players.

[pinstripers]

"except for shooting and defense"

[FadedCrown]

If you are going for pure offensive, then yes Etienne is a downgrade to SHJ. But look how Haynes-Jones plays. What would happen if Etienne played like that? We either have Trae Young 2.0 or Chance Moore 2.0

[another shocker]

i hope all players that can return do return. this team is one of the youngest in the country, literally. what they sorely need is game experience.

[molly jabali]

To Pinstripers...I'd be interested to know who you think we WOULD want back that won't stay....

[pinstripers]

Nobody specific, I just think a player or two will get tired of this debacle

[WstateU]

Debacle?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20160630010229

[FadedCrown]

If you were to look at the Shockers like a stock.

http://www.barttorvik.com/team.php?team=Wichita+St.

Look at our game scores.

[molly jabali]

i hope all players that can return do return. this team is one of the youngest in the country, literally. what they sorely need is game experience.

I'd be interested into who you think we WANT back who would leave...

[Kel Varnsen]

If you were to look at the Shockers like a stock.

http://www.barttorvik.com/team.php?team=Wichita+St.

Look at our game scores.

Torvik's stuff is great. Thanks for posting.

Also gives us all a more sober look at the team's performance.

[ShockerNut2012]

Without starting specific rumors, I think some news will be coming out soon that won't be a big help to our future. Will be interesting to see if anyone doesn't play tomorrow or in upcoming games.

[WstateU]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjVKUap1HgU

[Stickboy46]

"Without starting rumors, I'm going to start a rumor"

[proshox]

I am sure it will be very very interesting

[asiseeit]

Having played and watched a lot of basketball over the years I feel I know the game pretty well and
trust what my own eyes / instincts tell me. I'll tell you this. I'll be VERY disappointed if any of the
following players don't return ( JE, AM, DD, ES, IC, and MU ) although I'd like to see MU red shirt to work
on his offense. I think those guys along with TA, DG, TE & Fernandes are the "future" and I think the future looks
good. I know I left out JB and RB. Like them both but next year I see them as getting limited playing time.
Neither one has a position that strongly suits them. I just don't see JB as an AAC level 1, 2 or 3 and don't
see RB as an AAC level 3/4 but both can help us as support players. Question is will they be okay with
limited roles. JB could prove me wrong if he learns to take care of the ball and facilitates better.

[ShockTalk]

Having played and watched a lot of basketball over the years I feel I know the game pretty well and
trust what my own eyes / instincts tell me. I'll tell you this. I'll be VERY disappointed if any of the
following players don't return ( JE, AM, DD, ES, IC, and MU ) although I'd like to see MU red shirt to work
on his offense. I think those guys along with TA, DG, TE & Fernandes are the "future" and I think the future looks
good. I know I left out JB and RB. Like them both but next year I see them as getting limited playing time.
Neither one has a position that strongly suits them. I just don't see JB as an AAC level 1, 2 or 3 and don't
see RB as an AAC level 3/4 but both can help us as support players. Question is will they be okay with
limited roles. JB could prove me wrong if he learns to take care of the ball and facilitates better.

Looked back at what the Eagle had said about JB when he was here on a visit. Found very little number-wise. I then looked at the IndyStar paper when JB visited Butler and found a number of interesting tidbits.

"Burton led Independence to North Carolina’s Class 4A (largest schools) championship and was MVP of the state finals. For the season, he averaged 16.4 points, 7.5 rebounds, 4.9 assists and 2.2 steals per game." His team was 31-1 for the season and he was their PG.

"In a state semifinal victory over Rocky River, Burton had 25 points and 10 rebounds. He also had February games of 34 and 33 points." Although his coach also said JB played on a very balanced team and did not post big numbers..

"Davis called Burton an explosive playmaker with a college-ready body. The coach said the guard is more of an attacking player than a shooter. Burton was 15-of-40 (38 percent) on 3-pointers. "If he needs to score, he’ll score. If he needs to rebound, he’ll rebound. Assists, he’ll do that,” the coach said. “He’s just really an all-around player. Very good IQ. Very tough kid mentally. Never rattled.”"

JB played almost 27 mpg the first 4 games of D-I ball. Then as more players were introduced to more minutes, his time reduced to just over 19 mpg over the next 10 games. Now, over the last 4 games, he's at 30 mpg. Apparently, JB caught on quickly and after player experimentation for awhile, Marshall has felt he is worthy of major minutes. I'm not sure he's one that I would write off too quickly.

[Stickboy46]

I really think his shooting is merely a confidence thing. I think JB needs to stick around.

[proshox]

JB is a good piece. Needs to be surrounded by some scorers though.

[shoxlax]

Agree he needs spend hours in the offseason working on his shot to the point you can’t play three feet off of him, but there is a lot to like with the rest of his game

[ShockTalk]

Let me throw some more info in judging freshmen/newbies forced into playing a lot of minutes with little on the floor guidance. I'll use to date numbers for them.

Let's add to this a freshman who had not only an experienced team around him, but a quality senior at his position to guide him. FVV had a much rougher first half than second half season, but I'm going to use his season numbers. By no means am I attempting to compare any newbie on this team as being as great as FVV in the future.

To make comparisons, I'll use a 30 mpg average which I feel is more representative to "starter minutes".

FVV: 630 total minutes, 16.2 mpg / 2.19 TOp30m
JB: 407 total minutes, 22.6 mpg / 2.73 TOp30m That's about one half TO more per 30 minutes played.

FVV: 7.95 points p30m. Fred averaged 4.3 points per game.
JB: 6.85 points p30m. So far, JB is averaging 5.2 points per game.

While RT is having a very rough time with the 3pt shot and his defense, he's tied for 1st in assists and it's no contest in assists p30. As a note, JB is 3rd in assists and 2nd p30.

RT: 4.37 assists p30m / A/T ratio of 2.00/1.00
FVV: 3.24 assists p30m / A/T ratio of 1.93/1.00

Remember, guys like JB, ES, DD, JE, and RT are the newbies that are fighting for a starting position and, so far, no other newbie comes close to their total minutes. Fred was the back-up PG and was played as such. Armstead had the most minutes played on that team and some times was even out on the court with Fred.

[shelback]

JB is going to be a really good player . He starts the point next year unless a really good grad transfer comes in. Kid is a winner and more athlete than I originally thought. Its tough playing the point in GM's system, I'm yet to see anyone master it walking in the door. Burton- Dennis-Stephenson are as good as anyone GM has brought in. They are relied on more as true Fr more than any of their predecessors, and playing a much tougher schedule to boot.

[proshox]

I genuinely agree, I just wish HCGM would simplify the offense and work on skill development. I am not sure the trade-offs to achieve perfect timing are worth the cost.

[Kung Wu]

Just think if Clevin Hannah or Joe Ragland had to learn the PG system with a ton of noob teammates and against the 11th toughest schedule in the country -- they would not have looked strong by the end of their junior seasons, but they still would have had solid senior campaigns.

I have hope for Torres to have a decent year next year, and that would make a big difference in the outcome next year.